D&D 5E Still no OGL (or other license) for 5e? Why not clone 5e with the OGL?

If the community could use the OGL to build retro clones of other copyrighted material, why not reproduce the mechanics of 5e (which I understand are not protected) with new writing different from 5e (as the writing is protected)?

I'm frustrated at WotC/Hasbro's silence on licensing, which is even a backtrack from previous announcements that had put a time frame on licensing. Yeah, we've got companies putting out material without a license but as far as electronic tools and support go, Fantasy Grounds is not what I'm looking for.

Probably because most people don't like to fuss with Ha$bro's lawyers?

No, seriously, while I'd squee at the first news of an Open Game 5E, the Big H most likely wouldn't...

Lucas Yew said:

Probably because most people don't like to fuss with Ha$bro's lawyers?

No, seriously, while I'd squee at the first news of an Open Game 5E, the Big H most likely wouldn't...

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Meh. OSRIC pretty much shows it's possible and, technically, 1E is owned by WotC as well.

I think it's more a reflection of a lack of demand at this point. When 6E rolls around, I suspect it'll be a different matter. (There are various 4E clones in different stages of completion, for instance.)

It's tricky as the language of 5e is so easy and natural. Having to re-write every power or line or mechanic while maintaining legibility but also not altering the rules is a Herculean task. You'd have to transcribe and then edit and then re-edit, hoping you didn't accidentally plagiarize or the whole thing is for naught.

If we don't see another OGL in a year or two, maybe someone might publish an OGL hack of 5e that is functionally compatible and allow people to sell products which work with both that game and 5e. But, without a major name behind that project, it likely won't gain much notice. There were a bunch of attempts at a revised 3.5e game prior to 4e, but all people remember is Pathfinder.

Whizbang Dustyboots said:

Meh. OSRIC pretty much shows it's possible and, technically, 1E is owned by WotC as well.

I think it's more a reflection of a lack of demand at this point. When 6E rolls around, I suspect it'll be a different matter. (There are various 4E clones in different stages of completion, for instance.)

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Exactly. I think a clone of a game no longer being published (especially one decades old) would of course get a different reaction than cloning the game they are currently trying to profit from. Someone is in for a rude awakening if they think that since OSRIC exists, they won't be scrutinized thoroughly if they try to release a 5e clone. Not much would get their ire faster than trying to make their core rule books redundant.

the_redbeard said:

If the community could use the OGL to build retro clones of other copyrighted material, why not reproduce the mechanics of 5e (which I understand are not protected) with new writing different from 5e (as the writing is protected)?

I'm frustrated at WotC/Hasbro's silence on licensing, which is even a backtrack from previous announcements that had put a time frame on licensing. Yeah, we've got companies putting out material without a license but as far as electronic tools and support go, Fantasy Grounds is not what I'm looking for.

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Two separate issues. You could write a different 5e under the OGL, but it would be nearly useless for electronic tools. What are you going to do, make a character generator that generates characters using language that's different from the language in the PHB, and use those characters in the same game with people who make characters from the PHB? Won't work so well. "Player: Says here I get a Leg-Up on foes who are within five feet on an ally". "DM: What they heck is a Leg-up?". Also with electronic tools you have to cite the rule you're using under the OGL every time (see the WOTC FAQ on electronic tools for how that works - it's why it's incredibly hard to make an OGL video game). It's way more complicated than simply a printed text adventure, where you can just dump all references at the back in small text.

Bottom line, the old OGL won't help much with electronic tools.

kenmarable said:

Exactly. I think a clone of a game no longer being published (especially one decades old) would of course get a different reaction than cloning the game they are currently trying to profit from. Someone is in for a rude awakening if they think that since OSRIC exists, they won't be scrutinized thoroughly if they try to release a 5e clone. Not much would get their ire faster than trying to make their core rule books redundant.

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Exactly this.

While I don't understand WotCs reluctance on some kind of license at this point, it's completely insane if someone thinks they can attempt to "retroclone" WotCs currently running and from all measures, well-standing and fairly profitable TTRPG line. That just ain't gonna fly.

It does seem like the "5E compatible" products that have come out so far don't seem to be getting hit with any takedowns, so perhaps WotC doesn't feel an OGL is necessary at this point in time, as compatible products can be produced without any need to really infringe on the core material.

For what purpose?

If someone wants to produce compatible stuff using the old OGL, they don't need to make a clone first. It sounds like a heck of a lot of effort!

the_redbeard said:

If the community could use the OGL to build retro clones of other copyrighted material, why not reproduce the mechanics of 5e (which I understand are not protected) with new writing different from 5e (as the writing is protected)?

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You almost certainly can, but you'd need to be very careful with your use of language. When OSRIC came out, WotC weren't really interested in 1st Ed anyway, so they didn't much care. But with a 5e-clone, they very definitely are interested, and they'll look very closely at what you've done. And if you get it wrong, they'll squash you like a bug.

Besides, an awful lot of what goes on in the RPG micro-industry is based on mutual respect. To a large extent, the best reason not to clone 5e is that that would be a pretty crappy thing to do - WotC put an awful lot of work into their game, so they really should have the opportunity to benefit from all that work.

It doesn't surprise me much at all that WotC hasn't opened 5E with an SRD yet. Those companies that know the logistics involved in using the 3E material to create 5E products via the OGL are experienced and quality companies, some of which WotC has already worked with on 5E material (curious as to whether Goodman Games might be the next one to work on a WotC AP). So WotC knows that these companies will produce good work worthy of the 5E name, plus can only work on a few things at a time-- thus the market won't get flooded with all manner of 5E material of varying quality.

But what WotC gains by not opening 5E is that it slows down every random Tom, Dick, and Harry from thinking he's a game developer and writing up some piece of drek and putting it up on DriveThruRPG hoping to make a bit of profit off of WotC's work. WotC is right now weeding those people out. Or actually more to the point, trying to redirect them. If a random person had ideas that they were a game designer, what they should have been doing all along is sending in pitches to Dragon and Dungeon, learning the ways of getting published through the channels WotC set up for them. Or even now... sending submissions to other companies trying to get freelance work.

But instead... the OGL just allows them to put stuff up for sale willy-nilly because they have this thought that all this writing they are doing should net them some cash for their efforts. Now, there's nothing wrong with that... if you can get someone to pay a buck for an adventure you wrote for your campaign, more power to you. But WotC by no means has to encourage that by opening up the latest iteration of the game and then seeing the market overrun with less-than-quality stuff all out to try and make a buck.

If you want to write gaming material... you have 3E and Pathfinder and FATE and all the other OGL games still available to do so. But if you are choosing not to use those platforms... we need to question whether you actually want to write gaming material or do you just want to to have the biggest game at the moment open to you because it's the most likely way you can make as much money as you can? More often than not, I'd guess it's the latter for a lot of the people out there.