D&D 5E So 5 Intelligence Huh

Mallus

Legend
Okay, so it has no bearing on D&D 5e. I figured as much.
It doesn't have a whole lot of bearing on older editions, either. For example, the AD&D PHB & DMG state that INT has a loose correlation to IQ (specifically, to whatever popular 1970s layman's conception of IQ EGG had), but includes other stuff. It's fair to interpret low INT as a lack of formal education, terrible memory, poor reasoning skills, etc. Neither book says anything like "a low INT PC is barely smarter than an animal".

However, the DMG does state explicitly that it's up to the player to characterize their PC (outside of the things the rules do address, like # of languages known, and class/spell level restrictions). It's not the DM's job to weigh in on how a dumb PC should act.
 

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Mercule

Adventurer
Okay, so it has no bearing on D&D 5e. I figured as much.
Correct. For my part, I didn't intend the 1E call out as an appeal to authority. It's more of an explanation of how/why that interpretation exists.

As for whether or not that's a "good" interpretation, it depends. It's a pretty simple rule of thumb and not grossly inaccurate. Sure, a 160 IQ is, essentially, a 1 in 10,000 chance (top 1% of the top 1%, IIRC) while a 16 comes up in 6/216, but it's heroic, so that may not bother folks as much as having to find a way to get a 20 (or whatever arbitrary number outside the bounds of a 1 in 216 granularity) in order to play a wizard as smart as Einstein or Hawking (both of which I've seen listed at 160 IQ).

IMO, Intelligence is in a "sweet" spot (i.e. really lousy one) between, say Strength and Charisma for purposes of measurement. Strength is relatively straightforward because its mostly a measure of how much a person can lift. Sure, you can argue about whether a bench press, dead lift, or drag is the best measure, but it's variations on a theme. As a bonus, there's no clear, easy equation for mapping Strength to, say, bench press. Charisma is purely subjective and there is no real-world value to which you can tie it. A higher charisma means you're more influential, likable, or something; there might be disagreement, but everyone knows its all arbitrary. For Intelligence, we have IQ, which is a real-world number and deceptively close to 10 x Int, including having a mean just above 10 or 100. But, the percentages don't break down right (see above) and there are parts of the Intelligence stat that don't map to IQ: memory, deductive ability, creativity (or is that Wisdom? maybe even Charisma), etc.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Okay, so it has no bearing on D&D 5e. I figured as much.

Maybe you enjoy playing a game where a swarm of jellyfish will always out riddle a 20 int PC due to the sheer number of rolls they get, but many of us actually want intelligence to be.........intelligence and have that 1 int jellyfish be unable to reason at all, despite only mechanically having a penalty to its roll.
 

Mallus

Legend
Maybe you enjoy playing a game where a swarm of jellyfish will always out riddle a 20 int PC due to the sheer number of rolls they get, but many of us actually want intelligence to be.........intelligence and have that 1 int jellyfish be unable to reason at all, despite only mechanically having a penalty to its roll.
I enjoy a game where anyone playing can solve a riddle. It encourages participation!

I also don't enjoy games where the player of a 20 INT PC always solves the riddle by rolling dice. It defeats the purpose of challenging the players with a riddle in the first place.

edit: also, the INT scale breaks down when you start comparing sentient beings with animals/non-sentient monsters. I don't think any edition of the rules intended to declare INT 5 baboons as intelligent as INT 5 human beings. The game is silly, but not that silly. INT 5 D&D people can talk and hold down jobs. Are you arguing D&D baboons can do the same? - actually, that makes for an interesting campaign premise: "Conquest of the World of the Greyhawk Apes"...
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I enjoy a game where anyone playing can solve a riddle. It encourages participation!

Then my advice is don't stick a 5 into intelligence. I won't play any PC with less than average intelligence because I enjoy participation in riddles, too.

I also don't enjoy games where the player of a 20 INT PC always solves the riddle by rolling dice. It defeats the purpose of challenging the players with a riddle in the first place.

Agreed. Iserith is reducing intelligence to nothing more than a bonus, though. What you end up with if you do that is the 20 int PC losing intelligence contests to a swarm of jellyfish due to the sheer number of rolls those jellyfish get.

edit: also, the INT scale breaks down when you start comparing sentient beings with animals/non-sentient monsters. I don't think any edition of the rules intended to declare INT 5 baboons as intelligent as INT 5 human beings. The game is silly, but not that silly. INT 5 D&D people can talk and hold down jobs. Are you arguing D&D baboons can do the same? - actually, that makes for an interesting campaign premise: "Conquest of the World of the Greyhawk Apes"...

Intelligence is intelligence. A 5 int baboon is just as smart as a 5 int elf. It may not have speech capability, but it has the same reasoning ability.
 

Mallus

Legend
Then my advice is don't stick a 5 into intelligence. I won't play any PC with less than average intelligence because I enjoy participation in riddles, too.
I don't like to play "IQ Cop" when I DM. I've got enough on my plate as is. If the campaign is old-school, then the riddle is solved by the player and their INT score is irrelevant. If the campaign is newer-school, the player is free to try, and they get the appropriate modifier to the check (which is -3 in the 3 most recent editions). Simple!

And I'd question the intelligence of any DM who let a school of jellyfish attempt to solve a riddle! Unless they were special magically smart jellyfish. Which is a whole other kettle of jellyfish...

Intelligence is intelligence. A 5 int baboon is just as smart as a 5 int elf. It may not have speech capability, but it has the same reasoning ability.
That's an interesting claim not backed up by anything in the rules I'm familiar with. Gives me an idea for a new PC, though: Dr. Koko, baboon MD. INT 4, WIS 12 (as per the 5e MM). She communicates by sign language and dotes on her pet cat. She's actually not bad as a doctor, since Medicine is driven off WIS...
 
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iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Maybe you enjoy playing a game where a swarm of jellyfish will always out riddle a 20 int PC due to the sheer number of rolls they get, but many of us actually want intelligence to be.........intelligence and have that 1 int jellyfish be unable to reason at all, despite only mechanically having a penalty to its roll.

Why would a swarm of jellyfish get a roll to solve a riddle in the first place? They automatically fail.
 
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That's an interesting claim not backed up by anything in the rules I'm familiar with. Gives me an idea for a new PC, though: Dr. Koko, baboon MD. INT 4, WIS 12 (as per the 5e MM). She communicates by sign language and dotes on her pet cat. She's actually not bad as a doctor, since Medicine is driven off WIS...

Hey doc what do you think the problem might be?

Ook!

That bad huh. What do you suggest I do?

Ook!

Great! I'll give that a try.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Agreed. Iserith is reducing intelligence to nothing more than a bonus, though. What you end up with if you do that is the 20 int PC losing intelligence contests to a swarm of jellyfish due to the sheer number of rolls those jellyfish get.

Only if the DM has no idea what he or she is doing.

Intelligence is intelligence. A 5 int baboon is just as smart as a 5 int elf. It may not have speech capability, but it has the same reasoning ability.

Nope. They just have the same modifier to Intelligence checks when they undertake an Intelligence-related fictional action with an uncertain outcome.
 


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