D&D 5E Fixing the terrible Grapple feat

CTurbo · Oct 7, 2016

Ok so I think we can all agree that the Grapple feat is pretty terrible. Even the Tavern Brawler feat is a better feat for grappling.

The Grapple feat has 2 features.

1. You have advantage for attacks against a creature you are grappling.
2. You can pin a creatures but both you and the creature gain the restrained condition.

Without the feat, you can already grapple a creature prone and gain advantage for attacks against it. This just allows advantage whether they're prone or not.
As far as pinning a creature, I don't see why this could not already be accomplished without this feat. Am I missing something? As a DM, I would already allow a player to make a str check to restrain a creature that the player is already grappling.

So......... this is an easy candidate for worst feat in the book. What can we do to make it better without breaking things?

The simple answer is to let you increase your str +1 and call it a day. But that's boring, and I believe that if a player wants to make a grappler build, they deserve a full feat.

So here are a few of options for a 3rd feature.

1. You can use your bonus action to make a melee attack against a creature you are grappling.
2. You impose disadvantage on str checks made to break your grapple.
3. You can use your action to disarm a creature you are grappling.

What do you guys think? Anybody have a better option?

I like feats. They really help you give your character some character

AaronOfBarbaria · Oct 7, 2016

CTurbo said:
Ok so I think we can all agree that the Grapple feat is pretty terrible.

No. Don't do that, it undermines whatever point you do have to claim there is no opposing opinion.

On to your points:

Grappling a creature that is prone requires, assuming you have done both yourself, more actions or attacks dedicated to the process than getting advantage by way of just grabbing does.

Being able to use 1 action to grab, then 1 action to attack with advantage, rather than both those actions plus another to render your grabbed target prone is a large benefit - especially when it means the difference between your opponent having a chance to escape before the attack or not.

Another way of looking at it: If you have a 70% chance to grab, and a 70% chance to shove a creature prone, you have a 49% chance to succeed at both and get your attack with advantage (again, assuming they don't escape between actions). If you have the feat, you have a 70% chance to get your attack with advantage.

As for pinning, what you are missing is that the rules don't support being able to apply the restrained condition without the feat - even if you as a DM would allow that. You can't hold your own rulings against the general rules of the game.

So all said, change the feat for your game if you think it needs a boost because of your style or rulings as a DM - you don't have to prove, or even claim, that anyone else thinks the feat is terrible in order to do so.

jaelis · Oct 7, 2016

Re pinning though, isn't proning the target basically equivalent, but also you don't take the penalty yourself? I think that part of the feat has issues. The first part though, I agree with Aaron, is OK.

Fixing the pinning part is tricky though because you don't want to make grappling overpowered. Maybe give advantage when you try to shove a creature you are grappling? Or maybe let you make a grapple check in place of an attack, and if successful you deal your unarmed strike damage?

Horwath · Oct 7, 2016

Maybe just give +1 to str or con and treat is as "half-feat". Even then it's not that good.

AaronOfBarbaria · Oct 7, 2016

jaelis said:
Re pinning though, isn't proning the target basically equivalent, but also you don't take the penalty yourself?

The restrained condition applies disadvantage on Dexterity throws while a combination of the prone and grappled conditions doesn't. The restrained condition also gives advantage to all attack rolls against the creature regardless of range they are made from, while the prone condition only gives advantage if the attacker is within 5 feet and actually gives disadvantage outside of that limited range.

KahlessNestor · Oct 7, 2016

CTurbo said:
Ok so I think we can all agree that the Grapple feat is pretty terrible. Even the Tavern Brawler feat is a better feat for grappling.

The Grapple feat has 2 features.

1. You have advantage for attacks against a creature you are grappling.
2. You can pin a creatures but both you and the creature gain the restrained condition.

Without the feat, you can already grapple a creature prone and gain advantage for attacks against it. This just allows advantage whether they're prone or not.
As far as pinning a creature, I don't see why this could not already be accomplished without this feat. Am I missing something? As a DM, I would already allow a player to make a str check to restrain a creature that the player is already grappling.

So......... this is an easy candidate for worst feat in the book. What can we do to make it better without breaking things?

The simple answer is to let you increase your str +1 and call it a day. But that's boring, and I believe that if a player wants to make a grappler build, they deserve a full feat.

So here are a few of options for a 3rd feature.

1. You can use your bonus action to make a melee attack against a creature you are grappling.
2. You impose disadvantage on str checks made to break your grapple.
3. You can use your action to disarm a creature you are grappling.

What do you guys think? Anybody have a better option?

I like feats. They really help you give your character some character

Really, how is tavern brrawler better? You only get the bonus action grapple if you ise an improvised weapon. That's just a d4 of damage, when I can use my d8 longsword at advantage. I looked at this when making my goliath bard.

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KahlessNestor · Oct 7, 2016

jaelis said:
Re pinning though, isn't proning the target basically equivalent, but also you don't take the penalty yourself? I think that part of the feat has issues. The first part though, I agree with Aaron, is OK.

Fixing the pinning part is tricky though because you don't want to make grappling overpowered. Maybe give advantage when you try to shove a creature you are grappling? Or maybe let you make a grapple check in place of an attack, and if successful you deal your unarmed strike damage?

Actually grapple and shove are considered attacks, not Actions, so they do replace one attack. So if you have 2 attacks, grapple for the first, shove prone with advantage for the second. If you have a third, wail away at advantage, or next turn do so. As well as the rest of the melee allies.

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Hawk Diesel · Oct 8, 2016

At my table, I've changed the 3rd bullet point to:

-When you use your reaction to make an attack of opportunity, you can choose to attempt a grapple rather than make a melee attack.