D&D 5E Can counter spell be counter spelled?

Werebat · Jan 21, 2017

IMC, enemy caster casts fireball.

PC abjurer says "neener neener" and counter spells it with a reaction and a Dispel Magic.

Enemy caster says "neener neener neener" and counters the counter spell with a reaction and a Dispel Magic.

Player calls foul because "you cannot cast two spells at once".

???

rczarnec · Jan 21, 2017

Yes, a counterspell can be counterspelled.

It would use the spell Counterspell rather than Dispel Magic though.

Fanaelialae · Jan 21, 2017

Werebat said:
IMC, enemy caster casts fireball.

PC abjurer says "neener neener" and counter spells it with a reaction and a Dispel Magic.

Enemy caster says "neener neener neener" and counters the counter spell with a reaction and a Dispel Magic.

Player calls foul because "you cannot cast two spells at once".

???

You can't cast Dispel Magic with a reaction unless you readied a spell. I believe that Sage Advice clarified that you can't use Dispel Magic in lieu of the spell Counterspell, so I'll assume you mean Counterspell.

Assuming that the enemy caster hasn't already used his reaction, it is legal by RAW. The limitation on two spells per turn only applies to spells cast as a bonus action (in other words, you can cast Fireball, use Action Surge, and cast another Fireball; you can't Quicken a Fireball and then cast another Fireball in the same turn).

Of course, the DM might rule that you can't cast Counterspell while casting Fireball because they both have a Somatic component, so the S for Fireball prevents you from making the S for Counterspell. There's nothing in RAW, however, which states that to be the case. One could imagine that you might be able to make the gestures for Fireball on one hand while making the gestures for Counterspell on the other. Or that the gestures for Counterspell are so overwhelmingly simple that it's designed so that it can be interwoven seamlessly with another spell.

Leatherhead · Jan 21, 2017

Werebat said:
IMC, enemy caster casts fireball.

PC abjurer says "neener neener" and counter spells it with a reaction and a Dispel Magic.

Enemy caster says "neener neener neener" and counters the counter spell with a reaction and a Dispel Magic.

Player calls foul because "you cannot cast two spells at once".

???

Well the player is wrong. The only rules with restrictions on casting more than one spell at a time are related to bonus action spells. Reaction spells are very weird to think about in a normal narrative sense due to their ability to seemingly halt or redirect the flow of time when they are cast. But as long as you have the reaction to do so, you may cast them, even if you are in the middle of casting a different spell.

Here is a sage advice link if you need further explanation:
http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/SA-Compendium.pdf

The Quote of note:

sage advice said:
Can you also cast a reaction spell on your turn? You sure can! Here’s a common way for it to happen: Cornelius the wizard is casting fireball on his turn, and his foe casts counterspell on him. Cornelius has counterspell prepared, so he uses his reaction to cast it and break his foe’s counterspell before it can stop fireball.

pdzoch · Jan 21, 2017

I'm a little confused by your use of Dispel Magic. Dispel Magic takes a full action to cast. It could be cast as a standard action or even a bonus action. RAW PHB 202 points out that even with a bonus action spell being cast, you can not cast two spells requiring 1 action time to cast in the same turn, even with a bonus action. However, spells requiring only a reaction to cast, can be cast in addition to a spell taking 1 action time. Also, each character only gets one reaction in a turn.

IF you meant to say they both cast Counter Spell, then yes, your enemy caster can cast both his spells (Original Spell and the Counter Spell). And it appears that your player confused the restriction on bonus spell casting as a general rule about two spells being cast in the same turn.

If you did mean Dispel Magic, which I doubt, then the 1st player could not have cast it unless he had a feature that allowed him to spend an action as a reaction AND he had not already cast a spell that turn. And your player would be correct that the enemy caster could not have cast the second spell.

Werebat · Jan 21, 2017

Sorry all, I meant Counterspell. And thanks.

ThePolarBear · Jan 21, 2017

Player might have a point tho.

Never thought about it that way, but Enemy Caster would be doing 2 things at once for at least a fraction of turn: Casting Fireball, getting interrupted by Counterspell, interrupting his own casting of Fireball by casting Counterspell. For a time it's casting both Fireball AND Counterspell at the same time. He is trying to make 2 different gestures for 2 different Somatic components at the same time. I can see how this could be seen as needing 2 different hands free to perform.

RAW wise i think hand count is the only thing your player can say it was not done "correctly".
RAI and RAW there seems to not be a problem casting 2 spells at the same time.
RAW i think it might be not possible to cast Counterspell on your turn if you cast a spell as a bonus action, as that prevents casting any spell but cantrips with a 1 action duration (Counterspell might be an exception RAI, however i do not have proof of either reading.). But this case is not yours.

pdzoch · Jan 21, 2017

The player may be right, but not in the way he was thinking. As [MENTION=6857451]ThePolarBear[/MENTION] is suggesting, there is the rules of the spell to consider.

Per RAW, Counterspell attempts "to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell." So it is not about time/action management as much as it is sequencing of the actions. While it is possible to cast a spell that costs only a reaction to cast in addition to a spell that costs an action to cast in the same turn.

There can not be a Counterspell to a Counterspell to preserve the original Spell cast BECAUSE the first Counterspell interrupts the Original Spell (in the process of it being cast). While a second Counterspell could interrupt another Counterspell, it could not be cast by the same caster as he would have to stop casting the original spell to cast the Counterspell, essentially ending the Original Spell. However, if a second spell caster decided to Counterspell the Counterspell, then the original spell could still be finished.

Whew. This was a mouthful. I feel like I just wrote a skit for Abbott and Costello.

jaelis · Jan 21, 2017

pdzoch said:
There can not be a Counterspell to a Counterspell to preserve the original Spell cast BECAUSE the first Counterspell interrupts the Original Spell (in the process of it being cast). While a second Counterspell could interrupt another Counterspell, it could not be cast by the same caster as he would have to stop casting the original spell to cast the Counterspell, essentially ending the Original Spell.

There's nothing to say you can't pause in the middle of casting your first spell to cast counterspell. So a legit sequence is
1. Dumbledore starts casting Fireball
2. Snape casts Counterspell
3. Dumbledore stops casting Fireball to cast his own counterspell
4. Snape's Counterspell is cancelled
5. Dumbledore finishes Fireball
6. The Gryffindor barbeque is saved!

That kind of thing pretty much has to be allowed if you're going to let characters take reactions on their own turn. The fireball could equally well have been interrupted to make an opportunity attack (in response perhaps to another creature's readied action to move.)

Do note however that if someone counterspells your bonus action spell, like Misty Step, then you are out of luck. Because if you cast a bonus action spell, the only other spell you can cast on your turn is a cantrip.

Werebat · Jan 21, 2017

I guess my next question would be, "Is Counterspell a game wrecker?"

It feels like it shuts down any caster who does not also have Counterspell. But then, this is at a point where the enemy casters don't have spells of higher than 3rd level. Is this just the point where Counterspell peaks in power?

Seems like any enemy caster who lacks Counterspell is a chump whose only contribution to combat will be to drain the PC wizard of a few spells before dying.

D&D 5E Can counter spell be counter spelled?

Werebat

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rczarnec

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Fanaelialae

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Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.

pdzoch

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Werebat

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ThePolarBear

First Post

pdzoch

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jaelis

Oh this is where the title goes?

Werebat

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