D&D 5E Can counter spell be counter spelled?

[Fanaelialae]

I guess my next question would be, "Is Counterspell a game wrecker?"

It feels like it shuts down any caster who does not also have Counterspell. But then, this is at a point where the enemy casters don't have spells of higher than 3rd level. Is this just the point where Counterspell peaks in power?

Seems like any enemy caster who lacks Counterspell is a chump whose only contribution to combat will be to drain the PC wizard of a few spells before dying.

It really depends on the campaign. In a previous campaign of mine, including the Flameskull that was a recurring villain, there were maybe half a dozen encounters with enemy spellcasters. Had there been a caster with Counterspell in the party for those encounters, they admittedly would have most likely been significantly easier (the only casters were a druid and a paladin, IIRC). But this was a campaign that went to 19th level and had (I'd guess) somewhere between 100 and 200 encounters. A spell that makes 3 - 6% of the encounters in the campaign significantly easier, but is doing nothing more than taking up a prepared/known spell slot the rest of the time, it fairly tame in my opinion.

Additionally, consider that it isn't available to every class; it's only on the sorcerer, warlock and wizard spell lists. It uses up a 3rd level prepared/known spell, and being that 3rd level spells are pretty good even at higher levels, another good spell is unavailable to you. It uses up a 3rd level or higher spell slot, which are pretty limited. If you're counterspelling every round, you're going to burn yourself out of resources fast. Finally, it uses your reaction. If you've already used your reaction, then you can't use it. If you're saving your reaction (to cast Shield against an attack you think is coming) then you can't use it. Overall, it has a significant opportunity cost for something you will only be using in the occasional encounter.

Admittedly, if you're playing in a campaign where spellcasters are common (such as set within a school for wizards) then you might consider restricting counterspell on the basis of being "too good". On the other hand, in a campaign where the DM favors melee brutes counterspell is junk and web is king. It will vary from campaign to campaign, but for the average game where the DM varies the encounters I would say (IME) that counterspell is fine.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Seems like any enemy caster who lacks Counterspell is a chump whose only contribution to combat will be to drain the PC wizard of a few spells before dying.

All enemies only contribute to combat is to drain PC resources before dying, so that's nothing out of the ordinary for an enemy caster to be forcing that resource attrition to be the player's choice; would you rather lose resources such as HP because this spell happens, or lose resources trying to stop the spell?

Of course, like anything else, it can be overused and become boring as a result - but that is solved, like anything else, by simply using it in moderation.

 

[pdzoch]

There's nothing to say you can't pause in the middle of casting your first spell to cast counterspell.

I'll buy that. it is not prohibited. Although, I think my original reasoning was sound and would no t have felt bad if used during the game.

 

[pdzoch]

I guess my next question would be, "Is Counterspell a game wrecker?"

I don't think so. There is a chance the counterspell will not work. The higher the spell being cast, the harder it is to counter. Although the counterspell can be cast at a higher level, doing so also burns up spell slots for other spells. How many spell casters want to burn up spell slot just to cast counter spells? I would require an arcane check to allow a spellcaster to identify what type of spell is about to be cast (automatic success if it is in their spell list), but I think a spellcaster would be hesitant to spend a spell slot on a counterspell just to counter a buffing spell. They would want to make sure it was worthwhile.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

It is boring if overused by NPC's. Better to save it for the big boss fight where the Pit Fiend drags out his pet wizard......

 

[ScaleyBob]

It is boring if overused by NPC's. Better to save it for the big boss fight where the Pit Fiend drags out his pet wizard......

Yep - keep it up your sleeve for when you really want to challenge or annoy your players. Nothing puts a bit more challenge into a fight than someone counter spelling someone else's big encounter ending spell, or their life saving Mass Healing spell, or their 'it's all gone pear shaped' teleport running away spell. It is something to do with caution in these situations - it can be a fine line between being challenging, and being an asshat.

Of course, if your players start throwing it around against any and all spellcasters, then return the favour - even to the point of having back up NPC Wizards whose sole purpose in a fight is to hurl cantrips, and counterspell counterspells.

 

[Werebat]

So here's a question:

Do PCs automatically know what spell an NPC is casting? Or is a Knowledge: Arcana check or something similar required?

Will the Counterspeller always know exactly what an opponent is casting and whether or not a 3rd level Counterspell will be sufficient to counter it? Or if he is blowing his Counterspell on a cantrip?

What would be a reasonable DC for such a check? 10 plus the spell level (DC range of 11-19) seems reasonable -- or should it be 8 plus 2 times the spell level (for a DC range of 10-28)?

 

[Leatherhead]

What would be a reasonable DC for such a check? 10 plus the spell level (DC range of 11-19) seems reasonable -- or should it be 8 plus 2 times the spell level (for a DC range of 10-28)?

Considering that a level 20 wizard as a +11 to their Arcana check: 5+2x(spell level), is just about right imo.

It also has the benefit of making the check approachable to a wider selection of characters, because sometimes you fight something with access to spells that are a tier above you.

Cantrips are dc 5 (Very Easy) nearly everyone can learn about them, as appropriate to Cantrips
Level 3 spells are dc 11 (Easy) most people know what a Fireball is, even if they can't cast it
Level 6 spells are dc 17 (Medium) people who actually study how magic works know how Disintegrate or Raise Dead work, while others couldn't tell you much other than that they maybe exist.
Level 9 is dc 23 (Hard) you need some dedication and experience to know how to properly use Gate.

That leaves dc 25 (very hard) for very rare magical effects and/or creatures, like how to become a Lich.
And DC 30 (nearly impossible) for unique magical effects, such as what artifacts can do.

 

[Plaguescarred]

You can cast counterspell following a counterspell.


Yan
D&D Playtester

 

[Gadget]

I guess my next question would be, "Is Counterspell a game wrecker?"

It feels like it shuts down any caster who does not also have Counterspell. But then, this is at a point where the enemy casters don't have spells of higher than 3rd level. Is this just the point where Counterspell peaks in power?

Seems like any enemy caster who lacks Counterspell is a chump whose only contribution to combat will be to drain the PC wizard of a few spells before dying.

Like others have said, counterspell takes a precious third level slot, and the caster can't always know what is being cast to counter. Furthermore, many monsters (and a Sorcerer with the subtle spell meta magic) can't be counterspelled due to the way they cast spells.