Tension, Threats And Progression In RPGs

Back when Dungeons & Dragons was new, the designers and most of the players were wargamers. Typical adventures involved threats to the player character's lives and possessions - their money and magic items. As the hobby has grown, more of the participants are not wargamers, and many campaigns must find other ways to create tension, or abandon tension entirely in favor of linear stories or other means. People refuse to have their painstakingly-crafted characters killed.

Back when Dungeons & Dragons was new, the designers and most of the players were wargamers. Typical adventures involved threats to the player character's lives and possessions - their money and magic items. As the hobby has grown, more of the participants are not wargamers, and many campaigns must find other ways to create tension, or abandon tension entirely in favor of linear stories or other means. People refuse to have their painstakingly-crafted characters killed.


". . . a good campaign must have an element of danger and real risk or else it is meaningless - death walks at the shoulder of all adventurers, and that is the true appeal of the game." Gary Gygax

Add to this players who have learned from video games that games never really threaten you – in video games there is always the save game or the respawn, and if your avatar is killed you just come back to life and go pick up your stuff and continue on as though it never happened. These players may not like a game in which their virtual lives can truly be threatened. Unsurprisingly, there's a large segment of video gamers who blame the game if the player fails.

The question arose recently on a LinkedIn group of what GM's can do to create tension other than threaten the physical well-being of characters.

Threatening not only the possessions of characters but also their status or well-being in their community may work. While this may be more acceptable to some than having their avatars' lives threatened, it still runs into the very strong loss aversion that is common in the 21st century. (Loss aversion: people's strong tendency to prefer avoiding losses to acquiring equivalent gains.)

The difference might be that if (say) there's a status track that reflects how much the community trusts the player character, even if the status goes down it's easy to see how it can go back up. It's more generic than, say, destroying the player's favorite magic wand - that wand is never going to come back. The game/campaign also must make whatever statuses are being tracked just as important as magic items and money.

But this still involves the threat that something will be taken away from a player's character, and therefore from the player.

The key to the popularity of Eurostyle tabletop games is that players are on a clear progression from less to more - as contrasted with games where players progress from more to less (as in Chess and all its variants, Checkers - and a great many wargames). Players never lose anything, never have anything destroyed or stolen, hence loss aversion is not involved.

The contrast can become not who keeps or does not keep something, but who progresses faster and who slower, even as everyone is assured of progression. This is the way computer RPGs work, again because your character cannot fail in their tasks, and even death rarely slows them down.

RPGs already have progression in the increasing capability of the character, whether that comes from leveling up, or more skills and feats, or more magic items and money, or something else such as prestige and ownership of land. But the early RPGs all threatened loss of something. How do we structure an RPG, or for that matter any adventure, so that players' loss aversion is not activated?

I don't have a lot of ideas here because, to me, games should always involve some sort of conflict (I strongly dislike Eurogames, which are usually parallel competition puzzles, not games). Conflict implies the possibility of loss. Without the possibility of loss or failure, what tension can you put into a game?

There's a spectrum of what most of us call "games" from a game as a tense challenge at one extreme to a game as an "experience," often a story, at the other extreme. Traditionally, stories required tension, required conflict as a major element, but nowadays stories without that tension have become more popular (also think of "walking simulator" video "games"). Thanks to the visual element that has become more and more important as time passes, video games are better able to provide an experience, although tabletop video games can come close when players have sufficient imagination. (Imagination is a disappearing commodity, but that's a topic for another time.)

I have always been content with threatening what the players possess, whether that's the physical well-being of their characters or their possessions (especially magic items and money). But I came to RPGs from wargaming, just as Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson did.

Perhaps readers can suggest how to structure RPGs without loss aversion, yet without turning the "game" into a story told by the GM that the players merely follow.

​contributed by Lewis Pulsipher
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
Your reaction is a little extreme. Just calling something a game doesn't say much. I mean players need a little more info, or they could wind up playing Candyland. RPGs cover a lot of territory, so of course if you are invited to join a group, you would want to know more. Nobody simply invites players to join a role playing game, without further clarification on the chosen game and style. It's especially important if you are picky about what you want from your game. I don't see how blurry lines are going to cause a hard-core gamist to accidentally get involved in "Smallville", for example.

Yes, I definitely agree, particularly given that the term "game" is being used by the OP in a particular (if not entirely defined) way to involve things like player position and competition. While that's one definition of the term, by no means is it the only one. A broader definition involves rules and structure, not necessarily direct competition.

I guess I think that terms like "gamist", "simulationist", and "narrativist" do useful work here. If I'm allocating my 100 points I tend to fall down roughly in a pattern of G 25, S 40, N 35, or something like that anyway. Other people I've played with are different, but my feeling is that one needs to have a good feel for a prospective group and likely compatibilities and frictions. A group that's close to N 100 is probably the "screw the rules, let's just RP everything!" group. I probably wouldn't enjoy playing with them and vice versa. Let them be and find a different group. (Of course, chances are good nowadays they'll be LARPers, so that's easy enough.)
 

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Derren

Hero
Personally I think RPGs with a heavy focus on combat but no chance of death are boring. Or maybe I should say shallow.
Its simply easy mode with no chance to really lose. Oh sure they can fail in one story mission but there is always another one or even a way to recover. And most importantly they still get XP so it was a win.

Thats my problem with progression in D&D. Its entirely done by XP especially now with optional magical items. And not only do you always get some XP no matter what you do, you also can't lose it anymore (Any XP loss mechanic from the past has been deemed unfun which contributed to the easy mode gaming).
I rather prefer an advancment scheme which relies on equipment or status. Those are physical values which can be given and taken away so when the PCs screw up there is an actual danger of loss (other than death). Also it is visible in the game and thus can be referenced. In D&D there is no in game way to know if the fighter you are facing is a level 1 pushover or lvl 30 demigod. If equipment is a large part of advancement like for example in Traveller you can judge with in game information if you should mess with that enemy or not.
Downside is that in the default D&D murderhobo style you can advance quite quickly by killing things and taking their stuff. So its more commonly used in modern or scifi settings where taking stuff isnt all that easy and there are more ways to break stuff you do not want the PCs to have yet.
 
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GMMichael

Guide of Modos
I'm asking what you think it is within the context of playing an RPG. I've played plenty of RP-heavy systems, and they've never looked like that video.

Improv, in the context of playing an RPG, is role-playing without tension, threats, or risk of character harm/loss. In other words, it's what the OP suggested might happen if you take character death off the table. There's no (player) tension in improv, because every response is correct.

On a more mechanical level, you could say that an RPG is still a game (not improv) as long as it has win/loss conditions in the form of die rolling, high-card drawing, etc., regardless of what the win/loss entails in the story. Die rolling floats a few boats.
 

MarkB

Legend
Improv, in the context of playing an RPG, is role-playing without tension, threats, or risk of character harm/loss. In other words, it's what the OP suggested might happen if you take character death off the table. There's no (player) tension in improv, because every response is correct.

On a more mechanical level, you could say that an RPG is still a game (not improv) as long as it has win/loss conditions in the form of die rolling, high-card drawing, etc., regardless of what the win/loss entails in the story. Die rolling floats a few boats.

Okay, so now you're defining when improv occurs - the circumstances under which it happens. Basically, any time the characters are not in a life-or-death situation - when they're in the tavern at the end of a long adventuring day, or taking a rest at the campfire, or speaking to any NPC who isn't likely to slit their throat if they say the wrong thing, then what's happening is improv, rather than gameplay.

But what is it? What makes those moments of the game different, worse, less rewarding than all the other moments of the game? Are you truly never engaged with the game-world when death is not on the line?
 

Hussar

Legend
In general, these genre discussions follow the same pattern. "I like X, I don't like Y, so, my chosen genre definition will include X and exclude Y". IOW, people's genre definitions are a reflection of their own personal preferences and not grounded in anything remotely approaching an objective viewpoint.

It's simply tribalism.

I would differ with [MENTION=2518]Derren[/MENTION] in one way. While I agree that combat without any risk of dying is probably boring, this simply doesn't apply to D&D. While 5e is a lot more forgiving than, say, OD&D, it's still quite possible to whack a PC.

The question becomes, what odds? What odds of the PC getting killed are high enough to be fun without being so high that the game becomes frustrating for the players?
 

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
Okay, so now you're defining when improv occurs
No, I was defining this:
But what is it?
For some reason, you heard "in-game" in my response, but my definition was referring to OOC/metagame play.
What makes those moments of the game different, worse, less rewarding than all the other moments of the game? Are you truly never engaged with the game-world when death is not on the line?
If you're referring to the tavern, campfire, or non-hostile NPC, each of those scenes is different from the other moments of the game because there's no risk of loss. It's where the game becomes a story told by the GM...and the players.
Perhaps readers can suggest how to structure RPGs without loss aversion, yet without turning the "game" into a story told by the GM that the players merely follow.

​contributed by Lewis Pulsipher
It's pretty easy to see if you watch some of Wil Wheaton's Titansgrave. Each session has a good bit of improv, and there's a clear portion when death/loss/harm is at stake and the rules kick in. So I guess lewpuls is asking: how would you run an RPG for players who don't want their characters to die? And since the PCs in Titansgrave never have a real chance of death (that I could see), Wil might have an answer for him.
 

MarkB

Legend
It's pretty easy to see if you watch some of Wil Wheaton's Titansgrave. Each session has a good bit of improv, and there's a clear portion when death/loss/harm is at stake and the rules kick in. So I guess lewpuls is asking: how would you run an RPG for players who don't want their characters to die? And since the PCs in Titansgrave never have a real chance of death (that I could see), Wil might have an answer for him.

I just don't see the separation that you're describing, either in Titansgrave or in the average home game. People don't stop playing their characters when combat kicks in, and there are still rules mediating the success or failure of their actions even when the stakes are lowered outside combat. Combat tends to be more tightly structured, but whether in or out of combat, it's all just people playing their characters within the structure of a game's ruleset.
 

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