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Guest 6801328
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Anybody else see the irony here?
D&D 5E 5E's "Missed Opportunities?"
Anybody else see the irony here?
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Guest 6801328
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Why is it necessary for this prep tool to be official WotC content?
Just out of curiosity, what are the possible components of these formulas? Complexity? Materials? Game Impact? Exoticness?
Sadras
Legend
I guess because magical items are a little more complex and sensitive within the fantasy world than many of the other tabled-information that has already been provided. Now if you recall earlier you and me discussed the missed opportunities regarding monster design. Now monster design is not an issue for me at all, in a similar way to how @cmad1977 deals with magical items, whereas for you, you want more details/advice behind monster design. So what I'm saying is, whatever reason I give you - it can be argued along the lines of subjectivity.
We all have our areas where we would prefer the designers to concentrate more - whether it be increased modular options, feats, spells, monsters, magical items, encounter design, rests etc.
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That's fair.
I do think there are a couple of differences, though:
1) Convenience vs. official status. I would have preferred that monster tactics/strategies to be in the MM simply so that it's in one place. Even if they came out with a second official book I would still have to be cross-referencing two books for each monster. But I don't really care if the tactics are official, or whether they are consistent from table to table. In fact, in some ways its better if they are NOT consistent table to table. Since it's not already integrated in the MM, I'd be just as happy with a great 2nd party resource. (That said, I'd buy the MM again if a new version contained such information.)
2) Controversial (or not). I don't think (but correct me if I'm wrong) that there would be any deep-seated objections to more content around monster tactics. I don't think that if WotC presented monster tactics for the DM to use there would be a risk of the underlying philosophy of the game changing. Not in the way that could happen if there is a sense that WotC is "blessing" magic marts.
Parmandur
Book-Friend
I have my own opinion, it is just different than yours: the rules as provided are sufficiently high definition for my purposes.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Y're welcome.
In fairness it might not be because they don't want to, or don't see a need for it, but because of another problem - see below...
I haven't looked at Xanathar's yet and am, in the main, rather unlikely to. Can you give me a two-line summary on how the treasure point system works?
Agreed. However herein lies the problem I mentioned earlier; see below...
Much more important than any of this, if PC item creation is to be discouraged (which would be my preference) there needs to be a big time factor attached. Potions and scrolls - they can be PC-done, within a few days. Recharging an existing device? Usually ditto.
Anything else? Start with 6-12 months construction time (includes sourcing materials, preparatory enchanting, actual construction or smithing, main enchantment, etc.) and go up from there.
And now we reach the problem I've mentioned above: DMsG - or some other online equivalent - is the only place this can go!
Why's that, you quite legitimately ask? Because the end result, in order to be the least bit elegant and-or functional for the average DM to use, has to be in the form of a purchasable computer program. A program that does the following:
a - has complete lists of all official magic items and easy instructions for custom or homebrew editing (deleting items and-or changing prices) and-or expansion (adding in your own stuff).
b - generates a number of random items (this number is input by the user each time) by weighted randomness - this hits the rarity issue - and their associated costs; this would be used when, say, determining what happens to be available in a given place.
c - has complete write-ups of all official items and properties.
I suppose if each book came with a thumbdrive containing the magic-items program it'd work, but otherwise a hardcover (or any) book just isn't the right medium for this - sad to say.
And WotC, no matter how hard they tried, wouldn't get this bang-on right the first time. However, if it's a computer program that's OK, as computer programs can be updated as and when errors are found and-or problems arise.
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To follow on from a post of yours further down, without quoting it all: I don't at all believe magic item pricing* should be - or in most cases even can be - done by formula. Each item has its own price, which may or may not be "accurate" in terms of utility and-or usefulness in the field; and I'm fine with that. Glaring errors can always be tweaked or fixed on the fly "You got that Ring of Invisibility for only 5000? Man, you got a deal - they're 8000 now!" and maybe someone might get lucky on a buy low-sell high hit - so be it.
* - exception: spell scrolls, where a by-level-of-spell formula is in most cases is all you need, plus material component costs.
And the same is true of a DM inventing a new item: just go ahead and bang a best-guess price on it. Time will tell if you've guessed too low, too high, or about right - and this would be reflective of whoever's first made this item in the game world - their initial price is also likely to be set by educated guess.
Formulae are way too constraining, IMO.
Lanefan
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Now this is an example of the all-or-nothing problem of extremes that arises every time this topic comes up.
Pricing items and thus by extension allowing for a magic item economy is not - or at least IMO shouldn't be - the equivalent of "blessing magic marts". All it does is reflect this series of extremely likely developments in the game world:
Step 1 - for whatever reason, someone ends up in possession of a magic item he or she has no use for (e.g. a fighter with a spell scroll)
Step 2 - ditto, but someone else (e.g. a wizard with a suit of enchanted plate mail)
Step 3 - these two people meet; each can make use of the other's item so they swap...and one pays the other some sort of consideration to offset a perceived value difference (the plate is seen as more valuable than the scroll)
Now we've got a barter or quasi-barter system. Next:
Step 1 - someone makes a magic item on commission for someone else
This alone sets a price for the item; combining materials, the builder and-or enchanter's time, and possibly some profit
Step 2 - the commissioner never returns to pick up the item, or flat-out changes his-her mind on seeing it
Step 3 - the maker, after doing what diligence she can to ensure the commissioner will not and cannot return (e.g. is dead), puts the item up for sale or auction.
And now the item's on the market as a straight sale.
Once these and other perfectly reasonable things happen enough times within a game world a certain set of values will slowly coalesce around the more commonly-seen items, which will eventually extend to pretty much everything.
Another very nice side effect of magic item price lists is they make possible a more equitable treasury division within a party; for this reason alone (and having seen some rather awful results otherwise) I probably wouldn't even play in a game that didn't have them.
Lan-"yes, not having even the most rudimentary of magic item pricing is very much a 5e missed opportunity"-efan
Oofta
Legend
Much like "secret recipes" the world over that are mostly marketing gimmicks I don't remember ever seeing any details of how a formula could be derived. Of course I don't follow every thread, and I can barely remember what I had for breakfast so there may be some universally agreed upon consistent formula that I've missed.
In the meantime, as a DM you have a few options. Base it on previous editions (which the designers have admitted was pretty haphazard), use some variation of rarity, or google "d&d sane magic item prices" to get someone else's homebrew version.
Personally I loosely base it on rarity because honestly it works well enough for my needs and it is as good as any other system because I think pretty much all of them are ****. Of course some people will tell you that WOTC is just being lazy because there must be some ultimate pricing scheme if only they cared. Because the prices in the real world are always sane and logical like how a few cents of cloth is worth thousands of dollars because they're collectible beanie babies.
CapnZapp
Legend
Treasure points are far too depressing for me to recount.
Basically it's like milestones but for treasure instead of xp. Abstract and wonky as hell.
And still it allows a la carte item shopping, so it kind of makes absolutely frikkin' zero sense!?!
(Note: I'm talking about its potential use for D&D in general - in published hard covers and in your home game. I acknowledge the AL has highly specific needs and challenges, and so I'm not talking about the AL's decision to use it)
As far as formulas: for me, a definite aim is for any utility-based item pricing and creation program would and should provide the same guidelines for existing as well as non-existing items.
And by non-existing I obviously mean new items the DM or adventure creates; items not from the "standard" lists.
Bringing in computer assistance is not my thing. I prefer my roleplaying to stay as analog as possible. I also have no difficulty with math, which might explain my acceptance for a 3.x-style system.
But the more general point is: why can't the book detail the manual approach, and then somebody could offer the calculator online? That is, I don't see how "it's difficult" should be an argument for "it must be done on the DMsG".
Especially since reach is critical. I simply cannot see anything short of an official seal of approval and inclusion in a hardcover to reach a critical mass of interested gamers.
I want discussions on this here at ENWorld. Give me even a single example of any 3PP that gets more than a single slow thread around here.
Even "Sane Magic Prices" that came out very early sees zero attention nowadays.
Official 1PP inclusion is the only way, I'm afraid. Anything less, and you might as well just make it for home use, or just play another game.
Zapp
PS. It wouldn't be their first time. With the updates of 3.5, MIC (Magic Item Compendium) you have two major refreshes in 3.x alone. There are probably at least one more I have forgotten about. And then there's, what, ten more years of experience from Paizo in Pathfinder....
... so, nah - saying "since they won't get it right they shouldn't even try" is even more defaitist than usual.
Other counterarguments to things said (not by you L):
- Why ever create anything if they can't make it?
- How can it simultaneously be both so simple so anyone could do it on DmSG and so complex even WotC can't do it right?
All these arguments would be soooooooooooooooooooo much more honest if the person just said "I don't like it and am just making stuff up to oppose it".
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