D&D 5E yes, this again: Fighters need more non-combat options

Quickleaf

Legend
I think bonus ASI/feats are mechanics to reinforce that backstory. As is the background selection. Possibly stat allocation, fighting style, and subclass options.

Right, all characters have the option for stat allocation, feats, and backgrounds, independent of class. Also, rogues have Thieves' Cant, which gives them a lens to view the worlds of D&D and implies a cultural context; a player choosing to play a rogue enjoys having that framework/lens as a point of reference. And so on for every class, excepting the fighter.

The fighter's PHB subclasses have no identity. Even Mike Mearls agreed with that sentiment. Xanathar's has started to open that up a little, but to a rather limited extent: Arcane Archer, Cavalier, Samurai.

A dex fighter with a criminal or spy background has more room for feats like dungeon delver, observant, or skilled because of that class mechanic. That gives contacts via background as well.

Fighters are more like a generic template but I find that opens up concepts as opposed to restricting them.

Yeah, that opens up the question: Why is the fighter different that way than the wizard, cleric, rogue, etc? Should it be designed as a generic template? Is something about the fighter conceptually at odds with built-in identity that other classes receive?

Clearly, designers of past editions of the fighter didn't think so – "fighters as lords" was alive and well into AD&D 2e. A shift happened around 3rd edition (or rather, the slow shift became more dramatic and obvious at that time), stripping the fighter of that built-in identity in favor of the "generic template" model. It's fascinating, because AFAIK no other class in D&D has had such a central concept removed from it.
 

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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I mean, seriously, what's the point in telling everything in this thread that's having the problem that it's a "player issue"? What do you hope to prove here?

Imma go out on a limb and guess he's trying to prove it's a player issue?

Too on the nose?
 

5ekyu

Hero
While that's true, it's not the whole truth and overlooks the extent to which class features do reinforce identity.

A good example is the wizard's Spellbook feature. So wizards are on the look out for other Spellbooks, maybe friendly wizards make a habit of sharing one another's spellbooks, while rival wizards try to secure their spellbooks from rivals, etc. It implies this whole scholarly sub-culture which wizards are involved with or at least a lens through which to view the D&D world.

Another good example is the rogue's Thieves' Cant features. It implies rogues have a network of shady characters and a special means of innuendo to communicate among this sub-culture without the dominant culture understanding. It implies a roguish sub-culture and offers a lens through which to view the D&D world.

And so on for clerics selecting a god, Paladin Oaths, warlock's Otherworldly Patron, Sorcerous Origin, etc.

Of course a player can craft a PC with unique backstory without any mechanics to reinforce that concept, however a player who chooses to play any other class does have some mechanics to offer a lens & sub-culture, whereas a fighter PC is in the unique position of only having the backstory the player crafts. It has no lens & no sub-culture implied by any of its mechanics, and therefor less identity built into the class than every other class.

Whether or not this is an item of concern is a very subjective matter.
But therein lies the rub.

How many threads if "fighter needs non-com-class festures" fo we have driven by how many **vs ** how many "can gods muck with clerics who go agsinst... " and "my warlock Patton is bring used H my GM to..," and Paladin oaths and yo maybe lesser extent rogues and thieves' guilds and "my hm uses my parents backstory against..." etc etc.

The classes present features that vary, I think intentionally, in the degree of "baggage" that ties them to other things in the setting and the degree to which the character is bound to other things, groups in the setting.

The fighter (depending on sub-class) weighs in at the lowest end of that scale- minimally tied by need for weapons and armor if thsts sll the player seeks to instill into the character. It's kind of similar to the class short rest focus - more independence in choices. Some barbarians likely fit that mold as do some rangers, some sorcerers and maybe some druids as well.

But each choice has consequences. Choosing the path to fewer ties also cuts out opportunities. It's the upside and downside of the homeless orphan safety net that's not rare by any means.

On the opposite side of that spectrum, you have the warlock, cleric and paladins for instance who have direct ties that almost always shape and define and in some ways limit their play going forward.

In between those two extremes are classes like wizard where interaction is needed to get the most (as you allude to) and the rogue's secret languages to the "guilds" or whatever.

So, to me, as they discussed with wanting some class and dub-classes to be simpler in play, they have a mixture of classes each with differing degrees of "external baggage" still allowing some range within each thru backgtrounds, back story, even race.

Should every fighter get festures added that leash it to former military units, former military campaigns? Should each choice of fighting style be managed in rules like the warlock patron and cleric domain are is - chaining its mechanical gains to a specific, limited set of external campaign elements that can then serve as both boon and bane at times?

Or is it a feature - both good and bad - that the fighter class was chosen to **not** make that choice of fighter style mechanics be limiting to what your charscter's ties are?

The way I see it, if you did have fighting styles wed to any limited set of external baggage, we would be seeing the uptick in "my gm wont let my fighter..." and the like complaints from those players who seek to avoid class-fixated-ties.


So, in regards to mechanical ties and baggage by class features, I am glad they provide a range of them for folks to choose from and ways to dial it up thru backgrounds and other choices rather than choose to make all classes fit the same mold.

My games session primer makes this an obvious factor of chargen- that some classes and backgrounds come with more or less built--in ties and baggage and that one should choose appropriately - specifically calling out the high end of clerics and warlocks as some of the baggage heavy. We see these as features not bugs and drawing attention to them at chargen as the GM is a way I help players get the best fit for what they want to play.

I think the game and chargen would be duller if the classes all fit the same mold in this regard so that hermit sorcerers, second-story-burglars, wandering sell-swords and holy vessels of the light of dawn all hand pretty much just the same built in and mandated class flavored degree of "external ties".
 

Hussar

Legend
Hi!

not sure why I’m being quoted - but please leave me out of this argument. 😁

Well, honestly, [MENTION=88539]LowKey[/MENTION], while I appreciate the humour you bring to the discussion, I would regrettably say that you're part of the problem. You might say it a lot more nicely, but, at the end of the day, you're basically telling anyone who has a problem with fighters not having enough stuff to do out of combat to play another class.

Which isn't really a solution to the problem. It's acknowledging that people might have the issue while simply sweeping it under the rug. Don't like the class? Want something a bit more in the class? No problem, here's a completely different class you can play that will do the trick. :erm:

Why not actually fix the class?
 


There's no easy solution to this as this is often less an issue with the class having too low skill modifiers and more of a problem with the player not being able to come up with clever ideas without having any spell list at hand.

Sure there may be some other issues... like wearing heavy armor and letting the others scout ahead due to having disadvantage on stealth checks and ending up staying around bored while the other have all the exploration fun.

But those issues are individual and cannot really be solved by a general "Give fighters feat X" solution. In the example above for example you could just change the way you work with stealth for example. Like always telling the players when threats are nearby (assuming they don't hide and plan an ambush - but in that case stealth doesn't help anyway) before asking for stealth checks, so as long as you don't warn them they can travel together without much worry.

If the issue is more the player not having any ideas, I'd probably start with trying to give him some ideas, maybe asking him what he imagines his fighters is good at or maybe exploring a bit on his stats (high charisma? well maybe you're good at winning encounters by talking) and tool proficiencies (Xanathar's guide is pretty good at giving you ideas with that).

If nothing helps and the player is just like "I want to be able to use cool utility cantrips too!" then I'd probably ask him if he wants to create a new character and we think of a reason why the other leaves / dies.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Yup. I have a player and know others who won't play anything more complex than a Champion. They are not new, nor lazy. They just interact with the game differently and that's just fine.

Yep. For many years I've played with a few guys who played fighters and avoided casters, because casters were too complicated and they didn't want the game to feel like work. They enjoyed the simple relaxation afforded to them by the fighter class. This game is for them, too.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
One of the issues with 5E is that, for most of the game, your ability modifier is more important than your proficiency bonus.

If the fighter wants to intimidate something, and they have a +3 bonus because they're actually trained in it, then they're still better off letting the untrained warlock do it, because the warlock is at +5 from Charisma.

In my opinion, the bolded portion is the problem, not fighter class. When we want to convince the DM of something, even though I'm better at persuasion than the rest of the group, we all contribute in the conversation. Why? Because we're people and people want to be heard, even if their bonuses aren't as high as the next guy.

If you stop treating your character like a piece in the game, and start treating him more like a person in the game, you will stop having an issue of not being able to participate meaningfully in non-combat as a fighter. 5e is great like that, since most DCs are pretty darn low and even with a penalty to a stat, you will make a lot of them. Especially if you find a way to do it with advantage.
 

Honestly if a fighter had +3 persuasion and a warlock has +5 persuasion and both try to persuade someone together, I'd let the Warlock roll at advantage and consider the fighter providing "Help" like with the help action.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Honestly if a fighter had +3 persuasion and a warlock has +5 persuasion and both try to persuade someone together, I'd let the Warlock roll at advantage and consider the fighter providing "Help" like with the help action.

For myself, I'd give advantage to the one who first told me that he was persuading the guy. If the fighter's player told me that he was doing it, the warlock would be giving the fighter advantage if he helped.
 

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