D&D 5E yes, this again: Fighters need more non-combat options

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Every time these discussions come up, people seem to always make the assumption that every class must be desirable by them. And since we all have different preferences...

Look at it like this. If the fighter had extra things like many people are suggesting in these threads, then there isn't a class for those players who like a more basic class. Note: do not confuse this type of player with a new player, lazy player, or dumb player (like I've seen inferred often). Some of the smartest, most experienced players prefer more basic mechanical classes because they focus on other things in their games. It's why basic D&D was so popular decades after AD&D was introduced.

We as a collective group need to understand that not every class is going to be designed for our preferences. I don't like bards or warlocks. At all. They just don't do it for me when I think of those concepts. So I realize that those classes aren't designed for me, and instead I have a whole bunch of other ones I can focus on that I like better, rather than demand that they make changes to the bard and warlock.

Then they should make a non-magical fighter type with good access to the social/exploration pillar and complex combat tactics on par with a magic user. I dunno, maybe call it a warlord. It's lame that the fighter is the designated button masher class and if you want something with player narrative control you essentially have to play a caster. What about all the kid brothers who just want to spam firebolt or heals? Do they not deserve a remedial class? Why is it the fighter that's always the training wheels chump?

Magic honestly does too much in D&D. If I had my way I'd drop all full casters down to NO trained skills (magic is hard and takes effort to learn) and add narrative skill powers for trained only skills, and high level maneuvers on par w spells. Even then non-casters would still be sub-par unless you let them make gather information rolls so well they are equal to scrying, speak w dead, mind reading, etc.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Then they should make a non-magical fighter type with good access to the social/exploration pillar and complex combat tactics on par with a magic user. I dunno, maybe call it a warlord. It's lame that the fighter is the designated button masher class and if you want something with player narrative control you essentially have to play a caster. What about all the kid brothers who just want to spam firebolt or heals? Do they not deserve a remedial class? Why is it the fighter that's always the training wheels chump?

Magic honestly does too much in D&D. If I had my way I'd drop all full casters down to NO trained skills and add narrative skill powers and high level maneuvers on par w spells. Even then non-casters would still be sub-par.

It's like you didn't even read what I said...

 

[BookBarbarian]

Every time these discussions come up, people seem to always make the assumption that every class must be desirable by them. And since we all have different preferences...

Look at it like this. If the fighter had extra things like many people are suggesting in these threads, then there isn't a class for those players who like a more basic class. Note: do not confuse this type of player with a new player, lazy player, or dumb player (like I've seen inferred often). Some of the smartest, most experienced players prefer more basic mechanical classes because they focus on other things in their games. It's why basic D&D was so popular decades after AD&D was introduced.

We as a collective group need to understand that not every class is going to be designed for our preferences. I don't like bards or warlocks. At all. They just don't do it for me when I think of those concepts. So I realize that those classes aren't designed for me, and instead I have a whole bunch of other ones I can focus on that I like better, rather than demand that they make changes to the bard and warlock.

Yup. I have a player and know others who won't play anything more complex than a Champion. They are not new, nor lazy. They just interact with the game differently and that's just fine.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

As a DM, are you giving the fighter an opportunity to contribute? Class proficiencies include History, Insight, and Intimidation, all of which can be used in the non-combat pillars. Roughing up an informant? Intimidation. Research? History and Insight.

One of the issues with 5E is that, for most of the game, your ability modifier is more important than your proficiency bonus.

If the fighter wants to intimidate something, and they have a +3 bonus because they're actually trained in it, then they're still better off letting the untrained warlock do it, because the warlock is at +5 from Charisma.

 

[Leatherhead]

They should merge the Rogue and the Fighter.

 

[FrogReaver]

Other martial classes out of combat options:
Ranger - Exploration features, spells that cover exploration roles very well, a benefit to taking wisdom that's greater than skill checks.

Paladin - An extradinary benefit for taking a high charisma which helps social interaction. Spellcasting that helps exploration and healing roles.

Rogue - expertise, reliable talent, starting with 4 skills, uncanny dodge which helps when scouting by allowing the rogue to more easily run away and hide from enemies in the event he is spotted.

Every class get's skills and stat bonus to skills. This leaves the fighter and barbarian with next to nothing in terms of comparable out of combat abilities.

I think give fighters jack of all trades and barbarians expertise in athletics would go a long way.

 

[KenNYC]

One of the issues with 5E is that, for most of the game, your ability modifier is more important than your proficiency bonus.

If the fighter wants to intimidate something, and they have a +3 bonus because they're actually trained in it, then they're still better off letting the untrained warlock do it, because the warlock is at +5 from Charisma.

Why not just do what you want to do and let the pluses fall where they may?

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Why not just do what you want to do and let the pluses fall where they may?

Presumably because they want to succeed at the task, and they aren't going to insist on taking the spotlight at the expense of their actual goal, no matter how often they find themself in this situation.

And while you could certainly go ahead with it anyway, and the other players would probably understand, that's no excuse for a ruleset that would force someone to make such a choice.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Two options I'd give my players if we had the same problems (for the moment every fighter has been quite satisfied with his/her experience)

1) Multiclass Dabbler: At level 6 and 11, you can take an ASI, a feat or choose to dabble into an other class. If you choose to do so, you gain a skill prof from that class and one of its level 1 features. (So its a multiclass-lite for game without the optional rule to do so and it doesnt slow the class progression).

2) Signature weapon: at level 3, choose a weapon you own. Roll twice on the minor properties table and once one the quirk table (143). At fighter level 6 you roll once on the artifact minor properties table (DMG 289). At fighter level 11, you can roll on the major properties table (290).

 

[KenNYC]

Presumably because they want to succeed at the task, and they aren't going to insist on taking the spotlight at the expense of their actual goal, no matter how often they find themself in this situation.

And while you could certainly go ahead with it anyway, and the other players would probably understand, that's no excuse for a ruleset that would force someone to make such a choice.

If a rule is interfering or impeding roleplay (as in the case of your scenario) then the DM should change the rule. It doesn't make sense one player is playing the macho, brawny fighter and the other is playing the scrawny weirdo sorcerer, and the beer drinking, fist throwing, bar room brawling fighter should not be trying to intimidate people because the rules say the high charisma sorcerer gets a better die roll. Everyone should do what they want to do, but that doesn't even make sense when you think about how this would play if it was a scene in a movie. That was a rule which clearly wasn't thought through.