D&D General Fighter Design: The Battle Die

[the Jester]

Responding to a couple of comments:

1. I am assuming a ruleset with no bonus actions. (It will have reactions, and some pcs, e.g. rogues and monks, might get more than one reaction per round.)
2. I am aware that a bonus to accuracy is better than a damage bonus. That's fine. If you roll high enough that you are sure you hit, add your battle die to damage (or save it for defense, or whatever). I don't want to mess around with anything that makes the player remember when to halve/double/otherwise modify the die.
3. When I said the die type increases over time, I meant as the fighter advances in level. (I'm assuming a total of ten levels in the game, after which advancement is via feats.)

 

[the Jester]

Is the idea of the thread that 'fighter's suck' and they need something more?

No, think of this as a replacement for things like proficiency bonus, fighting styles, increased crit ranges, battlemaster maneuvers, etc all rolled into one. This will be the basic chassis around which the fighter functions; it's not more stuff, it's (almost) all the stuff in one mechanic.

I might keep Second Wind and Action Surge, but I'm not sure yet, and I'm not sure about whether they'd come in at different levels than in default 5e.

 

[Quickleaf]

That's one of my internal debates right now.

Classes will have 10 levels. My hope is to capture "this guy is a badass in combat" with one rule that has many applications instead of trickling out many different options over time. I may give fighters a second attack somewhere in there (maybe level 5?) but won't both do this and allow the battle die to generate another attack. The battle die also sort of replaces proficiency bonus- I don't think I am going to be using that at all.

Yes, when you're drawing on previous design work to create something new, that back-and-forth design of connected elements is an intense process.

The challenge with your approach – no improving 'to hit' bonus – means that if monsters tend to get higher ACs at higher challenge levels, then your higher level fighter becomes more dependent on using the Battle Die just to hit in the first place.

The other issue is false 1:1 comparisons of bonuses. In many versions of D&D, a +1 to hit is more valuable than a +1 to damage. For example, this is why the AD&D weapon specialization gave +1 hit and +2 damage, or why there are 5e fighting styles that give +2 damage but not an attack bonus.

 

[the Jester]

The challenge with your approach – no improving 'to hit' bonus – means that if monsters tend to get higher ACs at higher challenge levels, then your higher level fighter becomes more dependent on using the Battle Die just to hit in the first place.

This is a very good point.

The other issue is false 1:1 comparisons of bonuses. In many versions of D&D, a +1 to hit is more valuable than a +1 to damage. For example, this is why the AD&D weapon specialization gave +1 hit and +2 damage, or why there are 5e fighting styles that give +2 damage but not an attack bonus.

My thinking here is that you usually know if you're going to miss after a few attacks. This allows you to optimize where the battle die goes (if you can roll it after seeing your d20 roll), applying it to attacks when necessary but to other things as is convenient. I'm aware that +1d4 to hit is generally better than +1d4 to damage, but if you're going to hit anyway without the d4, you might as well use it for damage (or saves when you're fighting a poisonous spider, or... etc).

 

[RangerWickett]

A long-running back burner project of mine is building the perfect D&D. This thread is about a concept I have for the fighter: the battle die. I'd like some feedback on it, if anyone has some to give.

The idea is that every round, a fighter gets a die that they can use in various ways. It starts as a d4 and increases over time. The fighter can use it every round, but only once per round. They can do things like:

• Add it to a weapon attack roll (probably after rolling the d20 but before knowing the result)
• Add it to a weapon damage roll
• Add it to the fighter's AC as a reaction when hit, maybe making that hit miss
• Subtract it from damage caused to the fighter by an attack
• Do that much damage when making an attack that normally doesn't do damage, such as a trip, disarm, or grapple
• Do that much damage on a missed attack
• Use it as a bonus to an Athletics check (or maybe any skill used in combat)
• Add it to a saving throw
• Add it to combat stunts in some way- for instance, push further

This would be a replacement for most combat-related feats and features that are strictly nonmagical. I'm considering tying extra attacks to it- you can spend your battle die to try to make an extra attack; if you roll a 4+ on the die, you can take an extra attack, so as the number of sides on the die goes up, your odds of getting a second attack increase. I'm not sure if I like that, though.

The idea is that the battle die gives a fighter round-by-round versatility and options while being simple enough to play that players who prefer to just hit things with their sword can simply always use their battle die as a bonus to attack or damage or something.

Anyway, I welcome any feedback.

Not mechanically the same, but in the same vein of 'I want fighters to do more stuff,' maybe there should just be a robust list of nifty things you can do with an action, but which a fighter can do as bonus action (like how rogues can dash/disengage/hide).

Maybe fighters can Dash, Grab, or Shove as a bonus action.

I sometimes also think around the concept of 'Poises,' where you pick from a roster of potential Reactions. Everyone's default poise is Alert, but you can change it during your turn:

Alert - You can make opportunity attacks when someone leaves your threatened area.
Brash - You can take no reactions, and attacks against you have advantage. However, on your next turn your first attack has advantage.
Clash - You can make opportunity attacks when someone enters your threatened area if they don't have a weapon that can reach you.
Defensive - You can make use your reaction to impose disadvantage on an attack made by an enemy within your reach or against an ally within your reach.
Evasive - When someone makes an attack against you, you can move 5 feet. If this moves you out of the reach of a melee foe, impose disadvantage on the attack. If used against a ranged attack and you manage to move into cover, gain the cover's benefit.

 

[Quickleaf]

A long-running back burner project of mine is building the perfect D&D. This thread is about a concept I have for the fighter: the battle die. I'd like some feedback on it, if anyone has some to give.

The idea is that every round, a fighter gets a die that they can use in various ways. It starts as a d4 and increases over time. The fighter can use it every round, but only once per round. They can do things like:

• Add it to a weapon attack roll (probably after rolling the d20 but before knowing the result)
• Add it to a weapon damage roll
• Add it to the fighter's AC as a reaction when hit, maybe making that hit miss
• Subtract it from damage caused to the fighter by an attack
• Do that much damage when making an attack that normally doesn't do damage, such as a trip, disarm, or grapple
• Do that much damage on a missed attack
• Use it as a bonus to an Athletics check (or maybe any skill used in combat)
• Add it to a saving throw
• Add it to combat stunts in some way- for instance, push further

Oh! The other thing I forgot to mention is the "onboarding" process of learning the class. This is your perfect D&D, so might not matter, but...

If I have to keep track of 9 things right out of the gate that's harder to learn than 2 things - even if the underlying mechanic is the same (which is the cool part of your idea), maybe I might not recall that "oh, you mean I can do damage on a miss?" or "wait wait, I can increase my AC or mitigate incoming damage?" or "I forgot I could use the die on my Athletics check."

I feel an experienced player would grok the idea pretty quick, but it is more upfront, rather than diffused throughout levels (which is usually meant to make it easier to learn). Just pointing out.

 

[the Jester]

I've been doing some work on this, and on how the fighter would end up looking using the battle die as a primary feature. Of course, without the overall system, it's hard to evaluate this. But for starters, elements that are relevant are:

• There are no bonus actions; instead, you spend part of your movement for the round to activate certain features.
• Assume that bonuses from ability scores are gone or nearly so. (No +3 bonus for having a 16 or 17 ability score.)
• Ability checks (including what are in 5e skills, tools, etc) are NOT 1d20 higher is better. Instead you want to roll as high as possible while still not exceeding the ability score you are checking against. So if you make a Dex check and your Dex is 13, you want to roll as high as possible, up to 13. Most checks are rolled on 2d6, 3d6, or 4d6 instead of 1d20. Some have a DC as well. For instance, opening a massive, stuck door might be a Str check with a DC of 13, so you simply can't open it if you aren't strong enough, and it's hard even then

Okay, on to the fighter.

 

[payn]

I think DCC has something similar to this.

 

[the Jester]

A quick note- there may be no proficiency bonus per se and little to no bonus for ability scores. There aren't a ton of modifiers brought to bear. Likewise, there are no save proficiencies; I'm considering a set of standard DCs or maybe even just having all DCs start at either 10 or 13 (not sure which yet).

FIGHTER

1d10 HD,

If Fighter is Your Starting Class: Gain proficiency in heavy armor.

Level - Features gained
1 +1 to attacks, Battle Die (1d4),Proficiencies (simple and martial weapons; light and medium armor;and shields)
2 Second Wind (1/rest)
3 Action Surge (1/rest)
4 Battle Die (1d6)
5 Extra Attack
6 +2 to attacks, Indomitable (1/rest)
7 Second Wind (2/rest)
8 Battle Die (1d8)
9 Action Surge (2/rest), Indomitable(2/rest)
10 Double Extra Attack

+x to Attacks: The bonus applies to all attack rolls using weapons, natural weapons, or improvised weapons (not to spells or similar effects).
Battle Die: Refreshes at the start of the fighter's turn. The fighter can use their battle die in any of the following ways.

• After rolling to hit, but before you know the result, you can add your battle die to that attack roll.
• After rolling damage on an attack, you can add your battle die to that damage.
• When you miss with an attack, you can deal your battle die in damage to one target.
• When you make a save, but before you know the result, you can add your battle die to that save.
• When an enemy hits you, you can use your reaction to add your battle die to your AC against that attack.
• When an enemy damages you, you can use your reaction to subtract your battle die from that damage.
• When you make a check to perform a maneuver in combat, such as attempting to disarm a foe, you can roll your battle die as a bonus die to your relevant ability score.

Second Wind: Costs 10' of movement. (No bonus actions) Heals 1d10 + fighter level.
Action Surge: Take any action.
Extra Attack: When you attack on your turn, make two attacks.
Indomitable: A failed save succeeds instead.
Double Extra Attack: When you attack on your turn, make three attacks. (This eliminates the whole issue of stacking extra attack- it's a different feature.)

Level Up: When you finish a level of fighter (i.e., if the class you took most recently upon leveling up was fighter), you can choose one of the following options, with an ability score needing 10 advancement points to increase one full point:

• Your Str, Dex, or Con gains 1d6 advancement points.
• Another ability score of your choice gains 1d4 advancement points.

 

[Shardstone]

Can I get a tally of everyone who is working on their own 5E heartbreaker (I am too)?