D&D 5E Cleric Challenged of Helm

So theres a Player in my game playing a cleric of Helm. Hes nominally LN on his sheet, but plays CN and has been doing so for several months.

Last session I made him change his alignment to CN.

My question is how should I handle his relationship with Helm? He clearly isnt roleplaying the Tenets of the Helmish religion.

Some thoughts I have-
1)Offer from another (CN) deity - I see you no longer follow Helm - follow me instead
2)Restrained or burdened by an item - he already has an Anti Vampire medallion - maybe it begins to fight him for control
3)Helm removes all abilities except those needed to deal with current plot (plague in Baldurs Gate - Seven days to the grave) and gives him a chance to earn back other abilities and freedom to use them.

The real issue is that hes a bad roleplayer - all his characters are essentially him - Chaotic Selfish, and its been addressed from time to time. The issue at hand is his play of this character - Im not really interested in removing him from the group and I dont believe the rest of the group is either.

Thanks
G

I don't care how my players interpret their God's tenets, or alignment, so if I was in your shoes, I'd be doing nothing.

But I'm not you. I think you should provide those options to your player, along with a 4th - "or something else" - and ask your player which solution he would prefer. Then go with that.


(I'd also recommend that during this conversation, you never hint at the idea that he's a bad roleplayer if you think there's any chance he'd consider that an insult, though I'm guessing you're nice enough not to do that anyway.)

What drew your player to being a cleric of Helm in the first place? Helm is the god of guardians, protection and protectors. Is he (or has he) ever worked to protect some people or some group? Because even if personality-wise he is Chaotic Selfish... if he's still protecting others while also indulging for himself (even if that protection is not purposeful but merely a happy accident)... the character could still be considered devoted to Helm (regardless of alignment differences.)

I've never been one to worry about what letters a player has written down on their sheet regarding "alignment"... I've always been more concerned with what the character does. Does the character still act a guardian to some one or some group (even if its just the party)? Then they still could be considered upholding the tenets of Helm. And thus there's not a whole lot that needs to be done.

That being said... if your player selected Helm as their deity just because... they randomly chose Helm as their deity... then sure, recommending the PC go through a roleplay experience to switch the god they follow could be fine. If the PC doesn't do or care about anything regarding guards, guardians or protectors, then finding a deity whose interests match what the PC wants and cares about makes sense and might be more fun to play.

But I would be reticent to force the player to change the deity for their PC just because you personally don't think they are upholding it... especially if the player genuinely cares and desires to be a cleric of Helm. For all you know... the player might be doing their level best to be a cleric of Helm, but they just don't know how else to go about it. As you said... maybe they're just a bad roleplayer. So maybe it isn't that they're purposefully ignoring Helm's tenets because they want to... maybe they just aren't good at actually roleplaying as someone who is all about guards, guardians, and protectors? Why punish them for that?

If they are doing the best they can to play their character as they think they want to... don't force them to change just because you don't like how it comes off. All you are doing is stomping on your player for not being the roleplayer you want them to be. And that's not good for anybody.

Gwaihir said:

So theres a Player in my game playing a cleric of Helm. Hes nominally LN on his sheet, but plays CN and has been doing so for several months.

Last session I made him change his alignment to CN.

My question is how should I handle his relationship with Helm? He clearly isnt roleplaying the Tenets of the Helmish religion.

Some thoughts I have-
1)Offer from another (CN) deity - I see you no longer follow Helm - follow me instead
2)Restrained or burdened by an item - he already has an Anti Vampire medallion - maybe it begins to fight him for control
3)Helm removes all abilities except those needed to deal with current plot (plague in Baldurs Gate - Seven days to the grave) and gives him a chance to earn back other abilities and freedom to use them.

The real issue is that hes a bad roleplayer - all his characters are essentially him - Chaotic Selfish, and its been addressed from time to time. The issue at hand is his play of this character - Im not really interested in removing him from the group and I dont believe the rest of the group is either.

Thanks
G

Click to expand...

If he goes against the basic tenets of his deity's faith (and it definitely sounds like it), then there definitely needs to be some sort of fallout as a result. Perhaps Tempus would be a better fit for him, given his alignment and actions?

I wouldn't "do" anything mechanical* to the PC, but representatives of chaotic gods making offers is a good plan. Since you, as the DM, control Helm's minions, there is nothing wrong with them expressing displeasure with the PC's conduct. I would start with mortal minions, since they could be wrong in their interpretation, it isn't as challenging as annoyed celestials (who presumably got their instructions from Helm). It is an opportunity for the player's PC to express strong belief in the face of opposition (and possibly get xp and gold if the intervention goes badly). I would throw in a high risk-high reward side quest to keep on Helm's good side. If the dice roll the PC's way, then I think you should live with it (and if they go badly, an extra special intervention by a CN god would probably inspire the cleric).

* Well, except conjure celestial and planar ally won't give the PC anything worth while (two words: 'celestial quasit').

Well, this old school DM would have an old school response to a cleric who wasn't following their deity.
I don't ascribe to this modern crap of write down whatever you please (often solely for x mech benefit) but then play any wich way you please. If you chose a deity who's requirements are xyz, then to get those benefits you will play xyz. Failure = loss of class abilities.

This response would involve loss of minor powers (stuff gained via subclass), not being allowed to take another lv of cleric, a visit of some sort from an agent of the deity (especially if the player/character questioned why this was happening), and finally the loss of spell casting ability.

These penalties could be lifted by coming back to the requirements/tenants/etc of the original deity or finding a new power.
This stuff would be played through because that's how bad roleplayers get better.

Gwaihir said:

So theres a Player in my game playing a cleric of Helm. Hes nominally LN on his sheet, but plays CN and has been doing so for several months.

Last session I made him change his alignment to CN.

My question is how should I handle his relationship with Helm? He clearly isnt roleplaying the Tenets of the Helmish religion.

Click to expand...

In general alignment isn't something that 5E really focuses on, but your campaign might, especially when deities are involved.

One question that I have to ask: how is he acting CN (or as you later put it "chaotic selfish")? CN is probably one of, if not the most misunderstood alignment D&D has ever had. Does he regularly break laws? Does he stand of up individuals, as opposed to groups? Does he just do random stuff because he's crazy? Or is he just a jerk? CN is the belief in personal freedom, unbound by others benefit (good) or harm (evil). This does not generally fit well with a protector (e.g. follower of Helm), so the deity would attempt to correct this action.

Gwaihir said:

The real issue is that hes a bad roleplayer - all his characters are essentially him - Chaotic Selfish, and its been addressed from time to time. The issue at hand is his play of this character - Im not really interested in removing him from the group and I dont believe the rest of the group is either.

Click to expand...

Unless he's a bad player (disrupts the game), booting him should not be required.

I suggest an RP solution, where the player can make decisions on the PC's future, but must accept consequences. I would have an angel/servant of Helm visit the character while alone, such as in his inn room or in a dream, making sure to highlight the glorious essence of the being to attempt to instill awe. Have the angel inform the player that Helm is displeased with his recent actions, noting a few things he's done recently that you believe has violated Helm's tenets. Give the player a chance to explain himself, because there may be a twisted logic behind his actions (or at least the player might make one up on the fly). If you seem satisfied by the response, I'd have the player make an Int/Religion check to compare his actions to the accepted norms (DC is up to you), revealing how his reasons may be faulty. If he offers no reasonable excuse, I'd have the angel warn of an oncoming disaster (current or the next adventure), and advise that Helm will be watching for "how you serve to protect the people."

A little while later, have an NPC talk to the character away from the others, saying something cryptic about how fickle the gods can be, winking at the PC. If confronted immediately (otherwise he disappears when the PC turns away), have the NPC calmly explain that he was once a worshiper of the gods, only to find most of them to be hypocrites. Basically he is a servant of another deity (I suggest Bane, but Shar or a CN god would work too), who will tempt him to turn away from the inflexibility of Helm.

During the adventure (whichever one you decide to test him on), keep tabs on all his indiscretions and positive actions, with the voice of the angel speaking to him about it when he prays for spells. By the end of the adventure, if the player hasn't done more good than harm, he hasn't changed his ways and have the angel reappear (alone again) and in a vengeful voice claim that he isn't worthy of the glory of Helm. The character will afterwards be unable to recover any class ability (including spell slots) once expended, nor can they cast rituals or change their spells. As soon as this is apparent, have the servant of the other god offer his condolences, and make the final push to convert him to the new god.

This should allow him to see his errors, make corrections if desired, or switch to the other deity. If they switch, he needs to change his domain to fit the new deity. The player will have full freedom to choose: change his ways, switch gods, or lose powers.

I'm not gonna lie. All my players have variations of my personality too. Otherwise I get bored with them. I acknowledge that this makes me bad at playing roles.

But I'm self aware enough to not put a L in my alignments. As a DM I personally would pull the old switcharoo. His powers function as they always have, but one night he has a vision of Helm. He might say "What's up Helm?" and Helm would say "What are you doing here? We haven't been in contact for ages."

Then followup vision from Chaotic Neutral deity of your choice.

Ive discussed this with the player. He still wants to play this character as a cleric. He admits that he is playing as Chaotic Neutral, but disagrees that he is not following the tenents of Helm.

I have some thinking to do, because like CCS, Im pretty old school; I believe that if you're playing a Cleric, especially at level 10, you need to be clued into the tenets of your God.

I like both the suggestions offered by Shiroiken and BookBarbarian.

Thank You for the Input.
G

You could have him be "burned out", where he can still perform miracles such as turn undead, but can no longer cast spells/prayers. This would make him similar to the drunken Red Priest from GoT.