In Defense of Milestone Leveling

5ekyu · Mar 4, 2019

Satyrn said:
I want to add to this.

Although I actually found this less-satisfying than gaining XP during our last session, my last session of play was still immensely fun.

Gaining XP and leveling is such a tiny part of what playing this game is about for me, which is why I said in my first post of this thread that I really don't care what system is used.

i will agree that Gm fiat is often not satisfying.

When i have done it, various reasons, leveling became so-so.

I much prefer a tier and session based system where its like a timer counting down sessions with a little wiggle room for "find a good moment". lets you dial the progression rate easily to suit the player's goals.

That said, i have wondered how a player-fiat on leveling system would play out.

Staffan · Mar 4, 2019

DM Dave1 said:
In our future campaigns, I think I will dabble with session participation leveling - I just need to find something that works well. Maybe by Tiers: 2 sessions to level up in Tier 1; 4 sessions to level up to/within Tier 2; 6 sessions to level up to/within Tier 3; 8 sessions to level up to/within Tier 4.

If you want to keep to the intended rate intended by the designers, it would be more along the lines of 3 sessions in tiers 3 and 4, rather than slowing it down.

Using standard XP awards it takes 10-11 "hard" encounters to gain a level from level 5 to 11. After that, it speeds up to 6-7.

Swarmkeeper · Mar 4, 2019

Staffan said:
If you want to keep to the intended rate intended by the designers, it would be more along the lines of 3 sessions in tiers 3 and 4, rather than slowing it down.

Using standard XP awards it takes 10-11 "hard" encounters to gain a level from level 5 to 11. After that, it speeds up to 6-7.

Thanks for the tips. I'll definitely throw that info into the idea soup as I figure it out. I'm inclined to want to have them savor the higher tiers by letting them enjoy each level a little longer, but I certainly don't want those levels to get stale by taking too long.

Bacon Bits · Mar 4, 2019

For awhile I was thinking about encounter XP based on how difficult it was for the PCs to overcome. That is, the combat encounter can contain whatever it wants. If the PCs spend a medium amount of resources, then they get medium XP. If the encounter nearly kills a couple of them, then it's a deadly encounter. It also means that if the PCs tackle one encounter a day and then long rest, they'll probably earn less XP. Obviously you'd have to account for the PCs trying to game the system by not healing or overextending themselves, but part of the idea is to encourage the idea that pushing yourself is more rewarding.

My rule of thumb for quest completion was usually 25% to 100% of a level's worth of XP, with more XP if the task is harder.

Recently, though, we've just been doing milestone leveling. You get a level when you've completed objective Z, regardless of what you do in the meantime. This actually adds disincentives for combat, but also adds disincentives for exploration, so I'm not entirely sure I like it.

CleverNickName · Mar 4, 2019

I promise I'm not being obtuse, and I'm not trolling. Why is "the DM telling you when you gain a level" considered DM fiat, but "the DM telling you when and how much XP you earn" isn't? I don't see the difference, and I think it's important for me to grasp that kind of nuance before I start deciding how I'm going to handle leveling in my new campaign.

In all cases I've seen here, there is nothing stopping the DM from just deciding "hm, I think everyone should level up now" and making it happen, and the players would be none the wiser. What am I missing?

Bawylie · Mar 4, 2019

CleverNickName said:
I promise I'm not being obtuse, and I'm not trolling. Why is "the DM telling you when you gain a level" considered DM fiat, but "the DM telling you when and how much XP you earn" isn't? I don't see the difference, and I think it's important for me to grasp that kind of nuance before I start deciding how I'm going to handle leveling in my new campaign.

In all cases I've seen here, there is nothing stopping the DM from just deciding "hm, I think everyone should level up now" and making it happen, and the players would be none the wiser. What am I missing?

Choice. You’re missing choice.

If I’m a player and I earn XP by making discoveries, defeating monsters, finding treasure, and making friends then I FEEL like my choices are weighed and rewarded.

If I just gain a level from time to time, and the connection between my choices and that level gain are not very strong, then I do NOT FEEL like my choices are rewarded and that I can just sit there and still gain levels.

Here’s an example. In my games, monsters that are tougher than you are are worth more XP and monsters that are less tough than you are worth significantly less XP. Discoveries are always worth a moderate amount of XP, and helping your allies is always worth a moderate amount of XP. How do you think my players behave? What do they do? What do they try to avoid doing?

Now if I were to just give them levels whenever I felt it was appropriate, I would lose the connection between the behaviors and the rewards. Any rewards would have to come from another source, but there still wouldn’t be a sense of progress toward character development. Can you guess how they behave in this scenario? Maybe. Maybe not.

Theoretically, they should play the same, regardless. But IMX (and speaking only for games I’ve run at my table), they do not play the same. The fiat system is always less focused and less engaged. It comes with a “when do we level?” after every session. With earned-XP, even earning it based on various milestones/quests, they’re more driven and even go after side rewards because they feel like they’re making progress.

And let’s be honest, a major component of a classed-based game with levels is character advancement. Removing the feeling that YOU affect that advancement also removes some of the satisfaction of the advancement itself. This is not always a welcome trade-off.

But the difference really is how your choices feel.

CleverNickName · Mar 5, 2019

Bawylie said:
Choice. You’re missing choice.

If I’m a player and I earn XP by making discoveries, defeating monsters, finding treasure, and making friends then I FEEL like my choices are weighed and rewarded.

If I just gain a level from time to time, and the connection between my choices and that level gain are not very strong, then I do NOT FEEL like my choices are rewarded and that I can just sit there and still gain levels.

Here’s an example. In my games, monsters that are tougher than you are are worth more XP and monsters that are less tough than you are worth significantly less XP. Discoveries are always worth a moderate amount of XP, and helping your allies is always worth a moderate amount of XP. How do you think my players behave? What do they do? What do they try to avoid doing?

Now if I were to just give them levels whenever I felt it was appropriate, I would lose the connection between the behaviors and the rewards. Any rewards would have to come from another source, but there still wouldn’t be a sense of progress toward character development. Can you guess how they behave in this scenario? Maybe. Maybe not.

Theoretically, they should play the same, regardless. But IMX (and speaking only for games I’ve run at my table), they do not play the same. The fiat system is always less focused and less engaged. It comes with a “when do we level?” after every session. With earned-XP, even earning it based on various milestones/quests, they’re more driven and even go after side rewards because they feel like they’re making progress.

And let’s be honest, a major component of a classed-based game with levels is character advancement. Removing the feeling that YOU affect that advancement also removes some of the satisfaction of the advancement itself. This is not always a welcome trade-off.

But the difference really is how your choices feel.

It's strange how our imaginations parse things, isn't it?

In the first adventure of my next campaign, I've already decided that everyone will gain one level when they escape the introductory dungeon. Whichever exit they choose (there are two), and how they reach it, will reward them with a level. Their choice will have a huge impact on which direction the story goes next, but the XP reward will be the same.

If I announce that to the group at the end of the adventure, you are suggesting that some players might feel like their choices didn't matter. "You have escaped the dungeon of Black Mountain! Congratulations, you all gain one level." I think I agree: that sounds really stiff and flat.

So if I were to instead award 300XP, the players might feel like their choices mattered a little more. Heck, I can use XP to make the milestone leveling all but invisible, if I'm clever about it. Maybe at the end of the night, I cherry-pick 3-4 memorable events from the adventure and give them enough XP to just barely pass 300. "...for successfully sneaking out of the torture chamber, 100XP. For surviving that goblin ambush and the dire rats, 150XP. And for, um, finding the secret door and disabling its trap, another 60XP. You all get 310 XP total."

Either way, the party goes up a level once they escape the dungeon, just as I had planned all along.

The really important parts will be stuff like...did they kill the boss, or let him escape? Did they take the exit that leads to the swamp, or the one that leads to the forest? Did they rescue the other prisoner? Did they find the sword? That's where the choices they make are going to shine (or haunt them). I'd prefer they focus on those rather than the points they get for killing Whatever, but I can see where assigning milestone levels might pull focus.

Thanks for the food-for-thought.

Bawylie · Mar 5, 2019

CleverNickName said:
It's strange how our imaginations parse things, isn't it?

In the first adventure of my next campaign, I've already decided that everyone will gain one level when they escape the introductory dungeon. Whichever exit they choose (there are two), and how they reach it, will reward them with a level. Their choice will have a huge impact on which direction the story goes next, but the XP reward will be the same.

If I announce that to the group at the end of the adventure, you are suggesting that some players might feel like their choices didn't matter. "You have escaped the dungeon of Black Mountain! Congratulations, you all gain one level." I think I agree: that sounds really stiff and flat.

So if I were to instead award 300XP, the players might feel like their choices mattered a little more. Heck, I can use XP to make the milestone leveling all but invisible, if I'm clever about it. Maybe at the end of the night, I cherry-pick 3-4 memorable events from the adventure and give them enough XP to just barely pass 300. "...for successfully sneaking out of the torture chamber, 100XP. For surviving that goblin ambush and the dire rats, 150XP. And for, um, finding the secret door and disabling its trap, another 60XP. You all get 310 XP total."

Either way, the party goes up a level once they escape the dungeon, just as I had planned all along.

The really important parts will be stuff like...did they kill the boss, or let him escape? Did they take the exit that leads to the swamp, or the one that leads to the forest? Did they rescue the other prisoner? Did they find the sword? That's where the choices they make are going to shine (or haunt them). I'd prefer they focus on those rather than the points they get for killing Whatever, but I can see where assigning milestone levels might pull focus.

Thanks for the food-for-thought.

You might consider not handing out an entire level’s worth of XP at once but doling it out over a period of time - even if that time is 1 session. 25% here, 10% there, 40% over there and a final 25% at the end.

You want to make sure the awards are consistent though. Or at least credibly related to their choices. GL!

Henry · Mar 5, 2019

I’ve used Milestone Levelling before it was called “Milestone Levelling” - probably going on 20 years now. The point at which I got tired of tracking XP in our 2E games with my gaming group at the time, I just pretended to keep track of them and started assuming an XP amount if they finished the adventure. In 3e, once the XP and level totals were all the same, it made sense just to level the whole group at the end of specific arcs. Then in 4e that term “milestones” came along, I had already been using it for years.

CleverNickName · Mar 5, 2019

Bawylie said:
You might consider not handing out an entire level’s worth of XP at once but doling it out over a period of time - even if that time is 1 session. 25% here, 10% there, 40% over there and a final 25% at the end.

You want to make sure the awards are consistent though. Or at least credibly related to their choices. GL!

Agreed. Like I said, I'd have to be clever about it...spread out the fake XP between gaming sessions, award XP for non-combat stuff and cut back on random encounters, etc. It's not "milestone leveling" if they don't spot the milestones, right?

"We've been wandering these woods for two weeks! How come we haven't had any random encounters? We only need 100xp to get to the next level!"

"Just lucky, I guess. Anyway, where would you like to go next?"

In Defense of Milestone Leveling

5ekyu

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Staffan

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Swarmkeeper

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Bacon Bits

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CleverNickName

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Bawylie

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CleverNickName

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Bawylie

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Henry

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CleverNickName

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