D&D 5E Brainstorm Sorcerer upgrades. (+)

[MoonSong]

Ok, the other threads are full of off-topic and sorcerer hate. So, let's open a thread to brainstorm ideas for sorcerer. This thread is a (+) thread, so no calls for erasure or merger please, and no derailing with whataboutism.

Some venues of discussion I've gathered from the previous threads:

• What are the mechanics you'd think could improve the sorcerer flavor?
• Spell points, spell slots or "free form"?
• The third level subclass problem.(Aka, how important the source should be?)
• Does the class merit a split?
• Should it be the "turn into a monster" class?
• Should the class remain Cha based, or should it be moved to Con?
• Can the spell list be made more different from the wizard?
• Do we need WotC to do it?

Of course, it would be better if we start going into specifics, not just broad statements.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Ok, the other threads are full of off-topic and sorcerer hate. So, let's open a thread to brainstorm ideas for sorcerer. This thread is a (+) thread, so no calls for erasure or merger please, and no derailing with whataboutism.

Some venues of discussion I've gathered from the previous threads:

• What are the mechanics you'd think could improve the sorcerer flavor?
• Spell points, spell slots or "free form"?
• The third level subclass problem.(Aka, how important the source should be?)
• Does the class merit a split?
• Should it be the "turn into a monster" class?
• Should the class remain Cha based, or should it be moved to Con?
• Can the spell list be made more different from the wizard?
• Do we need WotC to do it?

If Metamagic is the Sorcerer thing, maybe they should get to a point where their ability to access or manipulate magic is even more effortless, more like a superpower than a spell that is learned.

I like sorcerers, but I do not like spell points at all. It makes them even way better than non-spellcasters. Spell points allow the use of too many low-level (or high-level) spells per day. With spell points, a sorcerer could spend their spell points on more fireballs that have a high starting damage die pool (8d6), than spending those points on upcasting to a higher level spell slot where you only get 1 die extra of damage (9d6). You get more bang for your buck if you don't have to waste higher spell slots on upcasting for lesser rewards. Also, casting more 1st level magic missile spells is better than spending more points for upcasting. This is not a dig on sorcerers, as I think they have a lot of promise and can be cooler using other tactics.

How about Subtle Spell becoming usable without using points? For instance, I'd be interested in being able to use a Bonus action to "focus" and cast any spell subtly without use of points.

How about a sorcerer that can use their life force to power their sorcery points or metamagic? They could spend HD or HP. Or should that only be for a blood mage theme? I understand the desire to make Sorcerers Con-focused for casting modifiers, but that is too SAD to me. I have no problem making Con matter for sorcery points, though.

Subclass at Level 3 is fine. Just make sure that levels 1 and 2 have the core mechanics necessary, and Level 3 is the true "awakening" of the source of power, whether it was known or unknown to the PC (their choice, narratively).

To differentiate them more as inherent spellcasters, Sorcerers should not be able to cast any spells that require material/focus components to work. They should get more V/S spells, which would be even better if there were more Sorcerer-specific options to play with, beyond the core Arcane list. They had some fun ideas in the UA that can be improved and expanded on.

I've thought about this next idea as a function for all trained spellcasting classes, but will pitch it as a Sorcerer option here. All sorcerers have the inherent ability to access all arcane/sorcerer cantrips, even if they have limited access at any one time. However they can use their internal focus and meditation to change their cantrip loadouts at the end of any rest.

 

[Minigiant]

Split it in two.

Sorcerer as the Arcanists with a Spark.

Incarnate as the magical embodiment of a magical monster or event.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Spell points make the most sense to me.

As for mechanics for flavor, I'm just going to copy and ability from the Kibbletasty Psion I've mentioned before.

Energy Manipulation
When you gain this feature, you can manipulate energy in minor ways at will.

As an action you can cause a light that casts 30 feet of bright light and 30 feet of dim light, cause things you touch to catch fire as if touched by a match, cause small arcs of electricity, freeze or thaw up to 5-foot cube of water. Any ongoing effect you create lasts 1 minute or until you cause another ongoing effect with this ability.

Elemental Blast
Psionic Power
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: S
Duration: 1 Round

You can use your mind to create a burst of elemental power, blasting a target you can see within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 cold, fire, force or lightning damage.

• For each die of cold damage dealt, the creature's movement speed is reduced by 5 feet until the end of their next turn.
• For each die of fire damage dealt by the original attack, the creature takes 1d4 fire damage at the start of its next turn
• For each die of lightning damage dealt, an arc of lightning strikes another creature of your choice within 20 feet, dealing 1d4 lightning damage.

You can spend Psi Points up to your per use limit to add the following modifiers to (you can add multiple modifiers). The points must be spent when choosing the target of the power.

• Amplified (1 or more psi points):The target takes an additional 1d8 cold, fire, force or lightning damage.
• Lasting (1 psi point): Your Elemental Blast leaves a 5 foot radius sphere of devastating behind where it strikes until the start of your next turn. Creatures that enter this zone for the first time or end their turn in it must make a Constitution saving throw or suffer the secondary effects (slow, burn, arc) of the blast as if they had been hit by it.
• Massive (1 to 3 psi points): You unleash a massive blast; rather than making an attack roll, all creatures within a 15 foot cone must make a Dexterity Saving throw. On failure, they take the effect as if hit by the Elemental Blast. The size of the cone is doubled for each point up to 3 spent (2 points for 30 foot, 3 points for 60 foot).
• Overcharged (0 psi points): You take 1d4 force damage and do not add your Proficiency modifier from the attack or Spell Save DC for your Elemental Blast, but increase the damage it deals by twice your Proficiency modifier.

This is, mechanically, something I would like to see Sorcerer's do. A single, at-will ability that can be manipulated to cause a variety of effects. There is even a specialization that allows you to improve this ability, but lock it in to only one of these elements.

When you take this Discipline, you may (but do not have to) select a specialization from the following list. You may only select a specialization at the time of gaining the Discipline, and cannot change or remove a Specialization once selected.

Cryokinetic
You can only deal Cold damage with Elemental Blast. Once per turn, when a target takes Cold damage from your Elemental Blast, it must make a Constitution saving throw, or become restrained by ice until the end of its next turn.

When using your Psionics feature to cast a spell under Alternate Effects, the damage of the spell becomes Cold damage.

Electrokinetic
You can only deal Lightning damage with Elemental Blast, but the size of the damage dice of Lightning damage (both the initial damage and arc damage ) is increased by one step (to a d10 initial damage and d10 additional damage per point spent on Amplified, and 1d6 arc damage to a nearby target per die of initial damage).

When using your Psionics feature to cast a spell under Alternate Effects, the damage of the spell becomes Lightning damage.

Pyrokinetic
You can only deal Fire damage with Elemental Blast, but the size of the damage dice of fire damage (both the initial damage and burn damage) is increased by one step (to a d10 initial damage and d10 additional damage per point spend on Amplified, and 1d6 burn damage at the start of their turn per die of initial damage).

When using your Psionics feature to cast a spell under Alternate Effects, the damage of the spell becomes Fire damage.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I like sorcerers, but I do not like spell points at all. It makes them even way better than non-spellcasters. Spell points allow the use of too many low-level (or high-level) spells per day. With spell points, a sorcerer could spend their spell points on more fireballs that have a high starting damage die pool (8d6), than spending those points on upcasting to a higher level spell slot where you only get 1 die extra of damage (9d6). You get more bang for your buck if you don't have to waste higher spell slots on upcasting for lesser rewards. Also, casting more 1st level magic missile spells is better than spending more points for upcasting. This is not a dig on sorcerers, as I think they have a lot of promise and can be cooler using other tactics.

In practice, I've found this to be fine. I've been running with a spell point sorcerer in a game for a while, and it hasn't felt unbalanced.

 

[James Gasik]

Before I answer these, I'll preface this with how I've always seen the Sorcerer.

Before there were Wizards, there were Sorcerers (and Warlocks, but that's a different thread). You got your magic through a connection with magic itself. Only by painstakingly studying what you were doing and how, could the precepts of Wizardry be developed.

1- you don't use standard spell components. In fact, at a certain point, you might either dispense with them, or use anything you like as a component. While Wizards flail about with bat guano and sulphur, a given Sorcerer might create magical fire with the discarded scale of a red dragon, some dry kindling rubbed between the fingers, or with a focus such as a tinderbox or a lit torch. While what spells you can use at a given moment is limited, you can freely switch out your entire spell list from day to day- however, all of your magic is bound to a theme, based on it's source. A Fire Sorcerer draws on magic of heat, flame, light, creativity, hearth and home. A Water Sorcerer draws on magic of the oceans, rivers, seas, the waves, darkness and cold from the depths, life itself.

2- spell points might be more thematic, but there's nothing wrong with spell slots.

3- there shouldn't be a third level subclass. What kind of sorcerer you are should be set at level 1. This only has to determine what kind of magic you use, you don't need special abilities til later, which should lean into the nature of your magic. Water Sorcerers can swim and breathe underwater, Fire Sorcerers can stick their hand in a forge and not be burned. But these are secondary to the spells, which are your primary class ability.

4- there shouldn't be a reason to spit the class once it's identity has been affirmed.

5- only in a loose way. Your connection to magic marks you, yes, but "turning into a dragon" shouldn't be a full caster. You could, however, make a conceptual related class that does that (similar to Druid's relationship to the Ranger, or Cleric's relationship to the Paladin).

6- as cool as it would be to have a Con class, there are some serious concerns. One, having your prime ability be one that is important to all characters means you don't have to worry about conserving points for Con. You could just go Con/Dex and enjoy great defense, hit points, and so on. Even if you reduced their Hit Die, ultimately, they'd still end up as tough or tougher than the Cleric- 20d4+100 vs. say, 10d8+40 or even 60?

Charisma is fine, or even Wisdom as their primary ability. Having subclass abilities that key off Con would be fine, if you want Con to be secondary for the class. Certainly, Con save proficiency is a really neat thing that only Sorcerers get, making them lords of concentration, and that's something I feel they can have.

7- while the individual sorcerer manifests specific kinds of spells, their overall spell list shouldn't be limited. In fact, it should be expanded! Wizards learned from Sorcerers, after all. In fact, there should be some spells that are normally divine in there, if it aligns with their source of power. If a Fire Sorcerer wants to use Flame Strike, why not (I don't know why they would, but that's a personal choice). We're ok with subclasses giving unusual spells to other classes, and equally ok with Druids having a mix of divine and arcane magic, so why limit the Sorcerer?

8- the short answer is no. The long answer is, no, but yes. Because if you want this idea to become the new standard, it has to be seen as "acceptable". A lot of people look at third party as "busted power creep". And sometimes that's true, but other times, it's simply misunderstood. Like Psionics. So it would be better to have acknowledgment by the Powers That Be than not.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Ok, the other threads are full of off-topic and sorcerer hate. So, let's open a thread to brainstorm ideas for sorcerer. This thread is a (+) thread, so no calls for erasure or merger please, and no derailing with whataboutism.

Some venues of discussion I've gathered from the previous threads:

• What are the mechanics you'd think could improve the sorcerer flavor?

-memorisation of pre intergrated metamagic (expend the sorcery points at rest to have that metamagic part of the spell for the rest of the day).
-smite-like mechanics/abilities that directly burn spell slots for non-spell effects and actions.
-subclasses having exception based expanded spell learning ('the storm sorcerer can learn any spell that deals lightning or thunder damage').
-better short rest scheduling of magic and abilities

• Spell points, spell slots or "free form"?

spell slots i think, and relating to the above: but with more capability to shift the distribution of their slots like the spell point system (say you can merge four 1st level slots into having an extra 3rd level slot or trade one 5th level slot for three 2nd level slots('trading up' your slots here is less efficient as higher level slots are more valuable))

• The third level subclass problem.(Aka, how important the source should be?)

i'm fine with 3rd level subs, the magic seeps through in generic capabilities before starting to manifest in specific flavours

• Does the class merit a split?
• Should it be the "turn into a monster" class?

i don't think it needs to be split but if there ends up being a proper shapeshifter class alot of the more physical elements of the 'monster class' can be outsourced to that, sorcerer as the magic monster class, shapeshifter as the martial monster class

• Should the class remain Cha based, or should it be moved to Con?

i could see it as a con caster, but if not definitely the class's secondary ability, personally i think the sorcerer could have a floating modifier gimmick where your modifier gets based on your subclass, a draconic sorcerer get cha, a divine soul gets wis, abberant mind is int...

• Can the spell list be made more different from the wizard?

i think they both need to be refined into their own directions, wizards into more utility focused mechanical thematic specialisations (spell schools, combat casting, rituals), sorcerers into combat focused aesthetic thematic specialisations (dragon magic, faerie magic, storm magic).

• Do we need WotC to do it?

if wizards doesn't do it i really don't think it'll have the weight to ever be used at more than a handful of tables

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

In practice, I've found this to be fine. I've been running with a spell point sorcerer in a game for a while, and it hasn't felt unbalanced.

Are there other spellcasters in the party? Do they all use spell points? Do the martial character players care about the sorcerer being even better than core spellcaster design, powerwise? (Edit: I am a forever DM, so I always have to consider power-parity between classes to make sure PCs don't clearly overshadow each other.)

 

[mellored]

Remove the spell list all together.
Steel the warlock invocations and lean heavily into that.

Level 1: sorcerers blast
As an action, make an attack roll at 60'. If you hit, deal 1d6+Cha + your sorcerers level in damage. You choose between fire, cold, or lightning damage each time.

Erupt Magic
As an action, you create a burst of power centered on yourself. Each creature, other than you, within 10' of the burst makes a Dexterity Save. On a failed save they take 1d6+Cha+ your sorcerer level in damage, half as much on a successful save. You choose between fire, cold, or lightning damage each time.

Level 2: shape of the soul
Choose 2 of the following of which you meet the prerequisite. You gain additional choices at levels...
*add force damage you can choose for blast and erupt.
*erupt only targets creature you choose
*erupt can be centered within 30'.
*blast range is doubled.
*blast pushes the target back 10'.
*if you chose cold damage with blast or erupt, the target's movement is reduced by 10'.
*prerequisite sorcerer 5: you can cast haste as a bonus action. Once you do you can't cast it again until you take a short rest.

Level 3: subclass
Pyromancer
You can cast burning hands at-will. It's level is equal to half your Sorcerer level.
You gain resistance to fire.

Level 4: feat

Level 5: improved blast
You can make 2 blasts.
Erupt is now 15' burst.

...

 

[Minigiant]

(Repost)

I've always felt that the Sorcerer should not have spells known but get something like 3e domains. Spheres maybe.

A sorcerer starts with 2 spheres and gains more domains over time.
A red draconic sorcerer might pick Fire and Strength.
A black draconic sorcerer might pick Water and Trickery.
A wild mage sorcerer might pick Chaos and Luck.
A shadow sorcerer might pick Death and Trickery.
A Harry Potter sorcerer would pick Knowledge and Magic.

Then the sorcerer as the level up might be able to once per long rest cast a spell from any Sphere. And once per long rest, cast any low level Arcane spell. But these spells would have to be cast with Sorcery points.