Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?

Riley37

First Post
The amount of narration and in-character monologue I can tolerate from other players = X.

See also, George Carlin on driving speed:

Have you ever noticed that when you’re drivin’, anyone goin’ slower than you is an idiot? And anyone goin’ faster than you is a maniac?
"Will you look at this idiot!” [points right] “Look at him! Just creepin’ along!” [swings head left] “Holy s—!! Look at that maniac go!”
Why, I tell ya, folks, it’s a wonder we ever get anywhere at all these days, what with all the idiots and maniacs out there.

I mentioned, a while back, that I gamed with a player who, as GM, gave overly florid narrations. He would end by telling the players that their characters gasped in awe. (All of us, equally, no matter how deeply we've established character differentiation between the stoic veteran and the flighty apprentice? Apparently so.) When he was a player, and the DM was playing a villain's turn, and the villain hit his character, he would jump in to tell us how his character reacted to the hit (eg a rictus of grim determination), which slowed the flow, it was spotlight-hogging. The Champions TPRG has a rule that a monologue is a free action, regardless of length; he often invoked that rule. (IMO that rule is more appropriate to some comic book genres, than to others; Watchmen has a different flow from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.)

Eventually he ran games for middle schoolers, which on one hand can be a great gift, and on another hand, maybe that was his only remaining way to be the dominant gamer in the room, after fellow adults got tired of his style.

If the OP was "don't be that guy", perhaps coupled with a counter-example of under-narration, then the thread might have ended in the first hundred pages.
 

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Riley37

First Post
I’d start off by pointing out that the game being played is a huge factor here. What the players are allowed to narrate affects how much narration is necessary and acceptable.

Yes, but when you say "the game being played", do you mean the system and rule book? I am not aware of any difference between 3.5 or 4E rules on player narration versus 5E rules on player narration, because I'm not aware of *any* rules in 5E on player narration. There is some tradition and culture, among D&D players, which interacts with the rules as written, and which varies from table to table. Hero System has a genre-specific rule about player narration *in character*; when you're using Hero System to play Champions, you can establish that *in-character* monologues are Zero Phase actions (equivalent to free actions). Hero System doesn't have RAW about out-of-character player narration. (Well, not as of Hero 4E.)

Universalis has rules for what players establish about the fiction. It does not have rules for what players say when speaking in the voice of a character; the declarations which spend Coins to establish Facts are out-of-character. (Universalis is a no-DM system.) I have only played Fiasco once and didn't read the rules book, but I gather that Fiasco allows quite a bit of player narration, including narration which establishes facts in the fiction.

Having said that, generally speaking, I find high levels of player narration to be annoying. I don’t mind a bit, and I certainly like when players are engaged and talking about the situation. But when it’s a player’s turn and they start in with something like “Recalling his days on the high plains of Valinor, the stoic ranger Aspar presses on, undaunted by the challenges ahead...”

I find that self-indulgent. I imagine that player writing novels which are Mary Sue homages to the awesomeness of the protagonist. How about player narration which isn't a zoom onto the face of that player's PC? For example, a narration in which one PC turns attention towards another PC - "Aspar sprints to the side of his fallen comrade Lavinia, to see if she yet lives" - which is meant as a set-up for either the DM, or Lavinia's player, to narrate Lavinia's status? (It's possible that the GM doesn't know Lavinia's exact progress along the Wound Track; so the GM might turn to Lavinia's player for further narration.)

You mention "it’s a player’s turn". In my experience, gamers apply rigorous standards of "it's my turn, now it's your turn" more during combat (or chase or other action scenes) than during most non-combat. I've also experienced (recently) wrangling over who's taking too a long turn, when PCs enter a village, and split up to pursue a variety of non-combat downtime goals. The dwarven paladin went to the local smithy, the sorlock sought an appointment with the local mayor, the rogue found the worst bar in town, and the DM spent some time on each of their conversations with NPCs. Those scenes aren't mediated by the combat rules; they're not in initiative order as modified by DEX; they still raise the question of which player gets how much of the DM's spotlight. And in all those scenes, one of the time factors, is how much the DM narrates to establish facts and tone about the smithy, the mayor, and the dive bar. If the dwarf paladin's player goes to the smithy, and the DM spends five minutes describing the smithy then five minutes of NPC in-character speech, the local smith telling the story of how he was once an adventurer before he took an arrow to the knee, then that's ten minutes of that scene, before the player has a chance to say *anything* about what he wants at the smithy. If, at that point, the rogue player gets itchy - "when can we resolve what I find at the bar?" - then that player's impatience is understandable AND the paladin player might feel caught between "I want to play my PC!" versus "my scene has gone on too long already".

Wait, what does any of this have to do with literary value?

IMO a story in which the PCs *each have their own interests*, in which the paladin's interest in the forge comes from his worship of Tharmekhûl, while the sorlock's actions follow from his Noble background and his membership in the Lord's Alliance (plus he's the high-CHA "Face" of the party), and the rogue goes to the dive bar *to differentiate himself from all these lofty heroes he tags along with* (he's in it for the loot, not the heroism), is a story with more potential for literary quality, than a story in which the PCs stick with the trope of "go to the local tavern and flirt with barmaids".

This potential for literary quality comes from the players, not from the DM. But whether this potential gets realized, or not, depends in large part on how well the DM rises to the occasion. If the DM has a pre-written speech in which the mayor has a side quest for the party, and thus the DM spends time only on the sorlock's visit, while dropping the ball or giving token attention to the visits to the smithy and the dive bar, then the DM is missing an opportunity, and the DM is rewarding one player with more spotlight time than the others.

In this situation, perhaps the sorlock player should interrupt the mayor (and thus the DM) with "Hey, I came here because I've discovered clues indicating a regional threat, which I'd like you to communicate to the rest of the Lord's Alliance. If you have a mission for my party, then how about I gather the rest of them, and you tell all of us at once." The sorlock might, in the process, lose the scene the player hoped for; and the player will discover, if he doesn't already know, how well the DM responds to narrative interruption.
 
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Riley37

First Post
For me, as a player, I want the game to keep moving, so I generally want other players to finish their turn quickly.

That is a perfectly reasonable position to have! It's because RPGs exist in that space between social activity and game (with the addition of RPing and nerdom and other parts) that make this hard to pin down; but the basic gist remains.

Yes and no. In most mainstream, bog-standard D&D, this is often a reasonable position, *especially in combat scenes regulated by initiative order*.

In a non-combat scene, within a D&D game, this could be unreasonable. Consider the previous scenario in which the PCs split up on arrival at a town. While the sorlock visits the mayor, for the sorlock's own reasons, the mayor responds with a mission for the whole party. Perhaps the mayor pitches the sorlock, and the sorlock's player and the DM count on the sorlock relaying the information to the whole party; so the DM reminds all players at the table to listen closely to this scene, because though their players aren't getting the information *in real time in the fiction*, their players will get the information as soon as the party regroups (at the Bog-Standard Tavern, that evening). This scene at the mayor's office occurs during the sorlock's non-combat turn AND this scene IS how the story moves forward along the DM's intended plot.

If the rogue's player then jumps in with "Riley, let's not spend the whole session on your sorlock hob-nobbing with his fellow nobles. Wrap up your scene so we can move the story along", and if that pressure to shorten the scene *succeeds*, and three sessions later there's a question of "wait, did the mayor warn us about the dryads? we wouldn't have set fire to the forest if we knew about the dryads!" then that's a consequence of poor narration management between players and DM.

That's an example within D&D. In Fiasco, or Fall of Magic, "finish your turn so the game can keep moving" is a *horrible* position. Without player turns, there is no story progress, at all.
 

Riley37

First Post
I have to say that to me the defining difference between "literary" and not is not "participation." As a recent netflix product showed there can be interactive movies where viewer choices determine outcomes (and they are not the first.) There have been books that way for longer than that.

So, I would strongly suggest your title needs a different word than literary or its gonna be very misleading.

I know I came in hoping for a different discussion than participation.

This was the third post, following the OP and my pesky "so what?" response.

5ekyu, you were... not wrong.
 

Riley37

First Post
My meta-comment about the thread is that the signal/noise ratio will always be low, because it will continue to get derailed, and people will end up circling around the same issues. To the extent you want a lengthy, and productive conversation around, inter alia, the necessity of the GM/DM in a TTRPG (and or primacy of same), then a separate thread centered on that would better than a thread were people keep going back to issues of what "literary quality" really means.

Yeah. This is vaguely analogous to a discussion of a maths problem, in which every now and then someone new wanders in, and argues whether we're applying the proper order of operations (exponents THEN multiplication THEN addition). Or perhaps it's closer to people wandering in and arguing whether we're properly applying Euclid's postulates to Cartesian coordinates... when some of us have been trying to solve the problem with polar coordinates.

https://www.cut-the-knot.org/triangle/pythpar/NonEuclid.shtml
 

Riley37

First Post
These paragraphs, especially the bold, lets me know that you missed out on a lot of my past discussion. If you go back to a lengthy reply I made to Sadras fairly recently, I explain that much of what is getting labeled as "literary," including foreshadowing, actually belongs to the broader category of narratology. I regard TTRPGs as narrative endeavors but not literary endeavors.

If you and I were in a one-on-one discussion, then I would work within your distinction between narratology and literature. We're not. When you can get Maxperson, BRG, Hussar, and *everyone else in the thread including the drop-ins*, to follow your usage, THEN you can talk down to me on the basis of that distinction. In the meantime, get over yourself: you're one of many voices in the thread, you're not the OP, and you have no more prescriptive authority over the terms of discussion than I do.

I get the feeling that you skimmed what I said. Some description of the humanoid was presumably provided. I'm sure they would ask, and just because a player asked "what it was" does not mean that they would know or that as a DM that I am obligated to answer. Does their character know? :shrug:

Much as you may find it baffling, or even inconceivable, that someone can read your posts closely and still form different conclusions: it happens. In this case, it happened because you jumped to conclusions, while I did not. "Some description of the humanoid was presumably provided" - you haven't seen the movie "Predator", have you? If that movie were a TRPG module, the players would not get a *visual* description of the humanoid adversary in their first combat encounter with it, nor the second, nor the third.

I get the feeling that you skimmed what I wrote, and you missed this scenario: "Perhaps the PC saw the child, then looked away, then the child was gone when the PC looked again at the child's previous location."

That's how I would run the encounter, if the PC missed a Perception check versus the qallupilluit's Stealth check. Though I would, long before that moment, tell the players that the PCs heard a hum, because in the lore, that's a warning sign of the presence of a qallupilluit.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
("Your strawman moved the goalpost to ad hominem me with an improper appeal to authority! Also, my dad's argument could totally beat up your dad's argument.").

My dad's argument will totally rob your dad's argument. He starts off with a Masked-man Fallacy. Then he slides into a Broken Window Fallacy. And then, oh God, he did it again. He got distracted by an If-by Whisky. I guess I'll bail him out in the morning.
 

pemerton

Legend
pemerton said:
I use the words I need to describe the situation. These will depend on mood, whim, what has previously been said, what seems to matter in the current situation, etc, as well as (obviously) upon what I want to describe. That is to say, the words I use will depend on all the normal determinants of spontaneous human communication.
I don't feel like this is right... in conversation we rarely are consciously choosing our words it's more a stream of conscious effort (which is why people often put their foot in their mouth or have to correct/explain what they actually meant)... while in this situation you are consciously selecting certain words to emphasize a mood, theme, etc.
In conversation I choose words depending on what I want to say - for instance, if I want to describe a building, I might choose what other building or structure to compare it to. If I want to describe how a person behaved or seemed to feel, I might say they seemed upset and then clarify that to mean (say) angry, not sad.

I didn't say I choose words to convey mood or theme. I did say that my choice of words might depend upon mood. For instance, like many people, when I get worked up my speech becomes more energetic.

I addressed this... it's not a "sinister" village
so if you're playing grim and gritty fanatasy say Zweihander or Warhammer you don't use different descriptive elements in your narration/"conversation" vs. say a Lord of the Rings-esque high fantasy game? If you're playing Dark Sun it gets the same treatment/presentation/descriptive elements and narrative content as Ravenloft or Dragonlance? You're telling me the description of say a village in the mountains is the same in all fantasy genres?
I have two related thoughts in response to these posts:

(1) If it's not a sinister village then why would the description be the same? You arrive at a village. It's gloomy and the people don't look up. vs You arrive at a village. A friendly child offers to show you the way to the chief's hall. In my 4e game, when I wanted to convey something about a duergar hold to the players, I described some things their PCs could see, including slaves and brutal overseers.

The more general point: sinister or brutal isn't just an overlay. It's an emergent consequence of particular features of a situation. Non-sinister villages have different features, which therefore warrant different descriptions.

This feeds into the second thought:

(2) What gives LotR a different tone from (say) REH Conan is not just, or even primarily, th literay style. It's the story elements: the characters, their motivations, the consequences that ensue from their choices, and the thematic content that emerges from these things.

I find this is even moreso with D&D fiction like (say) Dragonlance vs Dark Sun. I tend to find most D&D writing a bit overdone. I don't think that the literary stye of Dark Sun books does anything in particular to convey the themes of the setting. It's the actual story elements and expectations for play that do this.
 

pemerton

Legend
I wanted to revisit this post from a few pages back because I think the nature of the GM role would obviously take focus in a discussion of narration. But looking at player narration may shed some light on the subject.

I’d start off by pointing out that the game being played is a huge factor here. What the players are allowed to narrate affects how much narration is necessary and acceptable.

Having said that, generally speaking, I find high levels of player narration to be annoying. I don’t mind a bit, and I certainly like when players are engaged and talking about the situation. But when it’s a player’s turn and they start in with something like “Recalling his days on the high plains of Valinor, the stoic ranger Aspar presses on, undaunted by the challenges ahead....” I want to smash my head into the table.
This isn't something I have strong views on. When I'm trying to adjudicate an action as GM, and I'm GMing a game in which the fiction has a big affect on resolution and consequences (say Buring Wheel or Traveller) then I like to have a fairly clear sense of what the character is doing, and overly complicated narration from the player can sometime hurt that.

But if the players want to banter with one another, or affirm their PC personalities against one another, that's fine with me.

With you "high plains of Valinor" example, I would see that as somewhat system-dependent. In some systems it's pure self-indulgence. In my 4e game, when the player of the Deva Sage of Ages recalls his days in the heavens, he is warming us up for some potentially unorthodox deployment of one of his memory-oriented abilities. In my MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic games, nearly every pool includes a Distinction that comes either from the PC sheet or the scene, and so there has to be some narration to contextualise that.

So maybe I'm more relaxed about player narration than you? Of course it's hard to tell in this abstracted medium!
 

pemerton

Legend
If the OP was "don't be that guy", perhaps coupled with a counter-example of under-narration, then the thread might have ended in the first hundred pages.
And if the OP was The Old Man and the Sea then I might have won a Nobel Prize.

If you wnnt to start a thread about spotlight-hoggin narration, go for it! It's not something that I've got much experience of, but I'm sure it's a thing.

But the OP is about something else - namely, the stuff that I said in the OP and have been discussing with other psters since!
 

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