D&D 4E How To Clone 4E Using 5E Rules

Zardnaar · May 29, 2019

Garthanos said:
4e heroic begins closer to level 5 in 5e.

Tony Vargas said:
Yep. Can't just copy/paste from an SRD.
If you don't go that exta mile (10 levels), though, you're not cloning it like PF cloned 3.5 or OSRIC cloned 1e, you're just dashing off another fantasy heartbreaker. Which, hey, must be worth it on some level, so many people have done it...

OSRIC is what the other clones are based on though, isn't it? If a 4e clone were practical, legally, it /might/ lead to other games using it as engine, like that, too - or not.
If.

Nope each clone does it's own thing. No one's cloned BECMI, they are mostly B/X, OD&D or B/X going to level 20 instead of 36.

Something like C&C is not strictly a clone but you can use it to duplicate 1E and 2E as it's closer to them. You can also layer in some 3E including feats by any other name.

Other OSR games might use B/X as a basis and layer stuff on that. Most seem to dump CMI or cap at 20. A few use ascending numbers as well.

Rules cyclopedia is hard to get, Basic Fantasy $5.

90% of games don't go to level 10, of the remaining 10% I doubt 1in 10 would reach lvl 20.

Hence if you trimmed 10levels you're not really losing 10 levels but gaining more paragon and perhaps epic level stuff. Paragon Path level 8 or even 6 or 7 why not? How about unified power list where the striker part is baked into the base class, Tempests and Rangers can both use twin strike. Or just use 5E weapon styles and layer the power effect on them.

vpuigdoller · May 29, 2019

Zardnaar said:
Nope each clone does it's own thing. No one's cloned BECMI, they are mostly B/X, OD&D or B/X going to level 20 instead of 36.

Something like C&C is not strictly a clone but you can use it to duplicate 1E and 2E as it's closer to them. You can also layer in some 3E including feats by any other name.

Other OSR games might use B/X as a basis and layer stuff on that. Most seem to dump CMI or cap at 20. A few use ascending numbers as well.

Rules cyclopedia is hard to get, Basic Fantasy $5.

90% of games don't go to level 10, of the remaining 10% I doubt 1in 10 would reach lvl 20.

Hence if you trimmed 10levels you're not really losing 10 levels but gaining more paragon and perhaps epic level stuff. Paragon Path level 8 or even 6 or 7 why not? How about unified power list where the striker part is baked into the base class, Tempests and Rangers can both use twin strike. Or just use 5E weapon styles and layer the power effect on them.

About BECMI Rules Cyclopedia is available for print on demand on dmsguild.com. I think Dark Dungeons is the closest to a BECMI clone.

Yaarel · May 29, 2019

Garthanos said:
A hero in epic needs to be able to split mountains just as a ritual can drill through barriers.

Suppose, a level 1 character can kick thru a very heavy metal door with a mass of about 100 kg.

Mount Everest is roughly 3,000,000,000,000 kg of mass.

Thus the mountain is about 30,000,000,000 times more massive than a door.

If leveling according to the curve of magnitude: 1, 3, 10, 30, 100, 300, 1000 ...

Then a character can break thru a mountain at level 22, with about the same difficulty as a character can break thru a door at level 1.

UngeheuerLich · May 29, 2019

Garthanos said:
Not including the Warlord put that out as an obvious lie to 4e fans.

No. To you. Some were happy enough with battle master options and the healer and inspiring leader feat.
Add in a warlord fighting style (which indeed is lacking) and you are good to go.

Fighting style: inspiring warlord: you can use second wind to heal an adjacent ally instead of you and you add your charisma as a bonus. Your allies gain + half your int modifier rounded up to initiative rolls and they can use dash as a bonus action on their first turn.

Matrix Sorcica · May 29, 2019

FYI,there's a 4E clone project going on at rpg.net: https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?thr...construction-framework-inspired-by-4e.834919/

Yaarel · May 29, 2019

Matrix Sorcica said:
FYI,there's a 4E clone project going on at rpg.net: https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?thr...construction-framework-inspired-by-4e.834919/

It seems their approaching is using the 3e OGL?

There is merit here to use 5e. 5e can reach more players and is a more robust gaming system.

CapnZapp · May 29, 2019

Yaarel said:
It seems their approaching is using the 3e OGL?

There is merit here to use 5e. 5e can reach more players and is a more robust gaming system.

How does that matter?

(Whether you use the 3e or 5e ogl to make a 4e:ish game I mean)

dave2008 · May 29, 2019

EzekielRaiden said:
Sorry, was very busy with games! (Just finished running another session tonight actually.) My hypothesis is that people for whom 4e is foreign to them have their back up most of the time. They're so worried about "messing up" that they can't feel comfortable doing all the things they feel completely comfortable doing in older D&D versions they're more familiar with. Even though the system is entirely robust and difficult to "break," I can't tell you how many people have point-blank told me they're "afraid" of breaking the "delicate" balance.

It sounds like you had played enough to become familiar with the system--if you played for most of 4e's run, anyway--so the hypothesis is at least partially contradicted.

I don't recall anyone an either group I ran worrying about breaking the system.

That being said, my groups may not fit the mold you were thinking about. One was completely new to RPGs (they didn't have any concerns, balance or otherwise, to begin with) and the other was a group that has played since the 80's and we have our own style of play more than a particular systems or editions style of play.

dave2008 · May 29, 2019

Garthanos said:
I thought players taking turns so that things felt all stop and go, was the dramatic change between 1e and 3e and and it has taken a lot to digest the lack of simultaneous feel in the newer editions.

Maybe I am miss-remembering, but I thought we took turns in 1e/basic when we played. I remember rolling initiative and the players going and then the monsters going. If anything, with the advent of reactions I think newer games feel more simultaneous. Maybe we were playing it wrong back in the day!

Xeviat · May 29, 2019

lowkey13 said:
But ... why?

Please, explain this to me as you might a young child, or a golden retriever. Really.

But while I've grokked a lot about 3e and 4e from the various echoes of debates here, I never really played either. And so I'm unclear as to why someone would want to clone the ruleset of an older edition into 5e, as opposed to just playing the old ruleset?

I can't speak for everyone, but 4E for me had a lot of class bloat. I personally disliked the approach of making a class for every source/role pair, and I disliked powers being by class instead of being largely shared (for example, look at how many spells in 3E/5E are shared between classes).

Remaking a 4E retroclone would be am exercise in game design for me. A way to clean up the player side of 4E while keeping the (what I see as) perfection of the DM side of the game.