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5E How To Clone 4E Using 5E Rules

Yaarel

Explorer
[MENTION=82504]Garthanos[/MENTION] and [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION]

I really want to consolidate AC and Reflex.

So, a sword attacks the Reflex defense. A ray attacks the Reflex defense.

An armor improves the Reflex defense, if the Strength/Constitution prerequisite is met.
 

Tony Vargas

Adventurer
[MENTION=82504]Garthanos[/MENTION] and [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION]

I really want to consolidate AC and Reflex.
What's the rationale for, to use a 3e-ism, a 'touch attack' needing to theoretically penetrate armor?

I mean, not that you need one, 5e just straight up works that way, anyhow. Just wondering.
 

Zardnaar

Explorer
I think everybody here agrees that 4e-style Constitution is superior? So, add the SCORE at level 1, and never additional BONUS hit points. This removes low level fragility, and avoids high level hitpoint inflation.



(Optional Variant, if players like fragile low levels: add the bonus once at each tier, at levels 1, 5, 13, 21?)
The reason I changed it was because of legal reasons, can't just really copy and paste the PHB. More HP than 4E, less healing surges.
 

Yaarel

Explorer
What's the rationale for, to use a 3e-ism, a 'touch attack' needing to theoretically penetrate armor?

I mean, not that you need one, 5e just straight up works that way, anyhow. Just wondering.
Reflex plus AC is such a redundancy. Moreover I see no need for a ‘touch’ attack, it is simply Reflex.

For example, shield really does help Reflex in the sense of deflecting an attack and getting out of its way. A shield helps against a magical ray.



If someone wants to call it the ‘Reflex defense’ or the ‘Armor defense’, I am happy either way, as long as they are the same thing.
 

Yaarel

Explorer
The reason I changed it was because of legal reasons, can't just really copy and paste the PHB. More HP than 4E, less healing surges.
Legal reasons, it is impossible to copyright a calculation.

There is no problem using the Constitution score rather than the accumulating bonuses. The word ‘Constitution’ and ‘score’ are legally available too because of the 5e agreement.

The 4e-ism of using the score is ok.



The only difficulty I foresee is, if using standard 5e monsters, they will have inflated hit points relative to player characters, but maybe that is ok?
 
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Zardnaar

Explorer
Since 4e level 1 doesnt really happen until 5e level 5, it seems worthwhile to split up the concept of ‘class’ into separate tiers. In other words, a ‘class’ includes impactful choices, at different tiers. At level 1, the player chooses a Student Course. At level 5, the player chooses a Heroic Profession. At level 13, the player chooses a Paragon Path. At level 21, the player chooses an Epic Destiny.

This means the Student tier is more like level zero. Low level Courses include basic fighting skills, basic stealth skills, basic casting skills, or so on. For example, Cleric is a Profession that begins at level 5. The Cleric player might have chosen a Course that relates moreso to spellcasting, such as a Healer (thus comes with extra magical abilities), while an other Cleric player might have chosen a Course that relates moreso to fighting (thus sports heavy armor and a special weapon). Both Clerics, regardless of earlier Student tier choices, would progress according to the Cleric Profession, from levels 5 to 12.

At level 13, the Cleric chooses one from a number of Paths.

At level 21, the player picks one from a number of Destinies.



A core ‘base’ class comes with an advancement track, that includes a default Course, Profession, Path, and Destiny. But a player can mix-and-match these according to taste.

4e style works well with the above approach from level 5 and up. Likewise level 0 flavors, such as Harry Potter wizard students or the kid longing to be a knight, get handled at levels 1 to 4.

A Wizard might well come from a Student Course that specializes in swordfighting, and really only begins spellcasting at level 5.



Student Tier
• Course (levels 1 to 4)

Heroic Tier
• Profession (levels 5 to 12)

Paragon Tier
• Path (levels 13 to 20)

Epic Tier
• Destiny (levels 21 to 24)
I won't be doing above 21, wasn't planning on doing anything but I can do a template and design and people can take it from their if they want to go to level 30 that is on them. Cart before horse anyway, I would make some lvl 1 precons, then extend to level 5, then add in some other classes.

After you have done the precons then make up the missing powers, then expand level by level to 5. Do people like 4E type at wills or use the 5E ones and add some missing ones in?

And hopw do you use 1W, 2 etc make it a flat bonus like 1d10, 2d10 etc or use 5E type attacks?
 

Tony Vargas

Adventurer
Reflex plus AC is such a redundancy. Moreover I see no need for a ‘touch’ attack, it is simply Reflex.

For example, shield really does help Reflex in the sense of deflecting an attack and getting out of its way. A shield helps against a magical ray.
Why doesn't the ray just affect the shield?
Why does full plate work against a magic ray?

IIF, you're not going to have armor decrease damage like in.. everything else, prettymuch ..but are going with the hoary D&Dism of armor making you harder to 'hit' because attacks have to penetrate it, then breaking out a Touch AC or REF defense makes a lot of sense. It doesn't matter if a lasso or bolas is wrapped around the part of your leg covered by your greaves or not. If you're covered in burning oil or greek fire, metal armor is going to act as a personal dutch oven, and other types are just going to add to the conflagration. That kinda thing.

(Sure, with magical touch attacks, you can wiggle around it: say the magic requires you touch the target's flesh, and armor matters again.)
 

Zardnaar

Explorer
Legal reasons, it is impossible to copyright a calculation.

There is no problem using the Constitution score rather than the accumulating bonuses. The word ‘Constitution’ and ‘score’ are legally available too because of the 5e agreement.

The 4e-ism of using the score is ok.



The only difficulty I foresee is, if using standard 5e monsters, they will have inflated hit points relative to player characters, but maybe that is ok?
The monsters will be rewritten. Some could be merged I suppose eg use the 5E monster slightly changed with some 4E abilites tacked on.
 

Yaarel

Explorer
Regarding hit points.

Suppose each race has base hit points.

(Tiny) 4 hit points
(Small) 6 hit points
(Medium) 8 hit points
(Powerful Build) 10 hit points
(Large) 12 hit points

Then add 2x Constitution bonus on top of this. Plus class hit points.
 

Yaarel

Explorer
Why doesn't the ray just affect the shield?
Why does full plate work against a magic ray?

IIF, you're not going to have armor decrease damage like in.. everything else, prettymuch ..but are going with the hoary D&Dism of armor making you harder to 'hit' because attacks have to penetrate it, then breaking out a Touch AC or REF defense makes a lot of sense. It doesn't matter if a lasso or bolas is wrapped around the part of your leg covered by your greaves or not. If you're covered in burning oil or greek fire, metal armor is going to act as a personal dutch oven, and other types are just going to add to the conflagration. That kinda thing.

(Sure, with magical touch attacks, you can wiggle around it: say the magic requires you touch the target's flesh, and armor matters again.)
5e hates to attack attended objects − but rationally, the magic ray damages the shield or the plate armor, not the person. Or the shield or armor actually reflects or deflects while being only cosmetically damaged.

Armor, including a shield and a heavy cloth armor (gambeson) definitely help escape burns from burning oil.
 
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Tony Vargas

Adventurer
5e hates to attack attended objects − but rationally, the magic ray damages the shield or the plate armor, not the person. Or the shield or armor actually reflects or deflects while being only cosmetically damaged.
I can accept that answer. It implies that your hps include your gear. …yeah, OK.

...what about the lassos & such, though?
 

Yaarel

Explorer
I can accept that answer. It implies that your hps include your gear. …yeah, OK.

...what about the lassos & such, though?
Lassos might have a ‘special’ attack. − But a shield would help prevent a lasso. The rest might be better to handwaive.

But, burning oil is effectively negated by armor. Likewise shield and armor effectively deter dragon breath and so on. How many times have I seen a picture of a knight with shield deflecting dragon fire!
 

Yaarel

Explorer
[MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION]

Heh, if anything, the lasso targets the Perception defense! Not the Reflex defense. Anyone paying attention can easily render a lasso useless.
 

Yaarel

Explorer
[MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION]

Heh, if anything, the lasso targets the Perception defense! Not the Reflex defense. Anyone paying attention can easily render a lasso useless.

[MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION]

Maybe Sneak Attack against an unaware target, targets the Perception defense thus bypasses the Reflex-Armor defense.
 

Tony Vargas

Adventurer
[MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION]

Heh, if anything, the lasso targets the Perception defense! Not the Reflex defense. Anyone paying attention can easily render a lasso useless.
Forgot about the 4th defense. So, really, you do (kinda) have a touch AC, it's just not REF.
 

Yaarel

Explorer
I won't be doing above 21, wasn't planning on doing anything but I can do a template and design and people can take it from their if they want to go to level 30 that is on them. Cart before horse anyway, I would make some lvl 1 precons, then extend to level 5, then add in some other classes.

After you have done the precons then make up the missing powers, then expand level by level to 5. Do people like 4E type at wills or use the 5E ones and add some missing ones in?

And hopw do you use 1W, 2 etc make it a flat bonus like 1d10, 2d10 etc or use 5E type attacks?
I think it is fine to ignore Epic tier for now. Even ignore Paragon. Just work on Novice (1-4) and Heroic (5-12). Plenty to do. We can add more later once the foundation seems robust.



I hope to use 5e mechanics as-is, as much as possible. Only in a situation where a 4e-ism improves 5e, would I want to alter 5e.

I would just stick with the 5e weapon attack system, its math works fine.



I like non-random. The only dice I like to roll is d20.

According to 5e
• d4 ≈ 2
• d6 ≈ 3
• d8 ≈ 4
• d10 ≈ 5
• d12 ≈ 6
• 2d6 ≈ 7 (!) (the two .5s add up to +1, rather than rounding down)
 
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doctorbadwolf

Explorer
Like this??

1-4 student + 0
5-10 heroic +1
11 - 15 paragon +2
16- 20 epic +3

That is actually far closer to what i was thinking than I thought you were.
Not sure its enough though really.
In a system where +1 is as big a jump as it is in 5e? It should be plenty to have +3. That’s Legendary magic weapon territory.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Since 4e level 1 doesnt really happen until 5e level 5, it seems worthwhile to split up the concept of ‘class’ into separate tiers. In other words, a ‘class’ includes impactful choices, at different tiers. At level 1, the player chooses a Student Course. At level 5, the player chooses a Heroic Profession. At level 13, the player chooses a Paragon Path. At level 21, the player chooses an Epic Destiny.
That is a very interesting concept by the way... the choices path that creates is intriguing not certain yet on the levels but... the concept is rather cool. So the idea is that each tier choice is its own well class for that level range?
 

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