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5E How To Clone 4E Using 5E Rules

Tony Vargas

Adventurer
Math. The game is vastly too bloated mathematically, and it is a huge glaring flaw in the system.
It provided scaling to match the Heroic-to-Epic sweep over 30 levels.

It's no coincidence this thread also contemplates doing away with Epic and even Paragon. Compressing the numbers compresses the range of play & advancement, too.

Just don't whinge so much over the illusion of the treadmill, I say.

It needs less scaling of basic numbers, and vastly fewer stacking sources of static modifiers that can apply to a single resolution. The complexity of numbers, in terms of the number of sources of modifiers, or moving parts
Eliminating untyped bonuses would help with that. 4e drastically reduced the number of bonus types, from 18 in 3.x, to only a handful - stat mod, level mod, enhancement/inherent, power, feat, item, & proficient/trained... am I missing anything? Combat Advantage?

also is one of the main reasons that there are "math fix" feats that turn into feat taxes.
I wonderd whether that came from cutting stat-boosting items at the last minute. No, really, imagine if you'd worked out your "maths" assuming there's be +2, +4, and +6 stat-boosting items readily available, just like in 3e, as you progressed through the Tiers. That'd give an extra +1 per Tier bonus, just like the ugly, kludgey feat taxes did.

Either that or it was intentional, figuring that leader bonuses were going to be scaling pretty dramatically over 30 levels, too - a lot of 'em were based on a secondary, or even primary stat, so they'd increase by, like, +4 or, depending on ED, even +5 over 30 levels, but the too numerate for their own good did the math, gleefully found an 'error' and didn't think it through.
 

muppetmuppet

Explorer
I just read pathfinder 2 playtest, I have never played pathfinder.

It seems their model for feats might well be a good replacement for the way 4e did feats, possibly including utility and skill powers in the mix.

Didn't most of the small almost pointless hard to remember static bonuses come from feats anyway. It would seem you could live with bonuses from magic items and flanking/combat advantage and some powers.
Is that too many ?
 

Zardnaar

Explorer
Your level 13
the square root of 1 million 1000
the cube root of 1 million 100
the quad root of 1 million 31.6+
I just read pathfinder 2 playtest, I have never played pathfinder.

It seems their model for feats might well be a good replacement for the way 4e did feats, possibly including utility and skill powers in the mix.

Didn't most of the small almost pointless hard to remember static bonuses come from feats anyway. It would seem you could live with bonuses from magic items and flanking/combat advantage and some powers.
Is that too many ?
Pathfinder 2 execution was off but the concept was decent divorcing combat and non combat feats.
 

Zardnaar

Explorer
yeh I like that concept really would have been better even even without adjusting the feat scale.
In my homebrew I have added bonus feats a'la 3.5. But those bonus feats are expert or martial. Fighter gets more martial ones but still gets a few expert ones, Rogue is reversed but gets them at the old 3.5 fighter rate and the other classes it varies with primary spell casters not getting that much similar to 5E but only microfeats. Expert feats are skill focus, skill training, extra languages, utility and healing. Tempeted to just have feat/talent/feat/talent for classes like Rogues and Fighters. Go with the 4E/SESE/PF micro feat level 1,3,5,7,9 for a bonus feat.

I overhauled my feats as well invented some, merged weak 3.5 ones, ported some from 4E and Star Wars Saga and split some 5E ones up. .

From 5E capped ability scores, advantage/disadvantage, +2 seem to be good ideas eliminating a lot of the crud stuff.

Think I added an ability score improvement feat as will but you only get +1 since you get a lot more microfeats than 5E ASI's.
 

Zardnaar

Explorer
Text dump sorry, but here are my feats. Designed for a different game than a 4E clone but the design concepts could be used.

Actor
You have advantage on any deception or performance checks made to pass yourself off as a different person.
You can mimic the sounds made by another person or creature. You must have heard the person or creature talking or making those sounds for at least a minute. A successful charisma (deception) check opposed by a wisdom (insight) check indicates success.

Alert
You can’t be surprised while conscious
Other creatures do not gain advantage to hit you if they are hidden from you.

Armor Proficiency: Light [Martial]
You are proficient with light armor.

Armor Proficiency Medium [Martial]
Requirement: Armor Proficiency: Light
You are proficient with medium armor

Armor Proficiency: Heavy [Martial]
Requirement: Armor Proficiency: Medium
You are proficient with heavy armor

Armored Defense [martial]
Requirement: Proficient in Medium or Heavy Armor
You gain a +1 bonus to AC while wearing armor.

Athlete
When you are prone standing up only uses 5’ of your movement
You may climb surfaces at full speed and have advantage on any climb checks.

Charger
If you use the dash action, as a bonus action you gain an extra 1d6 damage.

Cleave [martial]
Once per round when you reduce an opponent to 0 hit points or less with a melee attack you can make an additional attack against an opponent within reach as a bonus action.

Combat Expertise You gain disadvantage on your attack rolls. Your opponents gain disadvantage on attack rolls against you. You can only use this feat while making melee attacks.

Dagger Master [martial]
You gain gains a +2 bonus to initiative and +2 bonus to hit when using daggers.

Dual Wielder
You master fighting with two weapons gaining the following benefits.
You gain +1 AC
You can use two weapons even when one of the weapons is not a light or finesse weapon.

Divine Boon
The gods favor you and have blessed you with a portion of their power. You gain a +2 bonus on all saving throws.

Dodge [Martial]
Your training and reflexes allow you to react swiftly to avoid an opponents’ attacks.
Requirement: Dex 13.
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to your AC.

Dwarven Resilience
As a reaction you gain resistance to an incoming source of damage. This ability can be used one per short rest.

Dwarven Weapon Training [Dwarf, Martial)]
Requirement: Dwarf
Benefit: You gain proficiency and a +2 bonus to damage rolls with axes and hammers.

Elven Grace
You gain a +1 bonus to hit while using a long sword, short sword, longbow or shortbow.

Elven Soldier [Elf, Martial)
Requirement: Elf
Benefit: You gain proficiency and a +2 bonus to all damage rolls with long swords and all spears.

Fleet Foot
Your base speed increases by 10’.

First Strike
You have advantage against anyone you beat for initiative in the first round of combat

Great Fortitude
You gain advantage on fortitude saves.

Great Weapon Master
You gain a +2 bonus to damage while using a two handed weapon.

Halfling Skirmisher [Halfling, Martial)
You gain a +2 bonus to hit with all slings and thrown weapons.

Heroic Inspiration [Human]
You gain advantage on an attack roll, saving throw or ability check. You may not use this abilty again until you complete a short rest.

Healer
When using a healing kit you may restore hit points to a being. You gain the following benefits.

When you stabilize a dying character you restore them to 0 hit points.

As an action you can restore 1d6+4+ your level hit points to a creature. A creature cannot regain hit points from this feat again until it completes a long rest.

Heavy Armor Master
While wearing heavy armor damage from non magical bludgeoning, piercing and slashing weapons is reduced by 3.

Hold the Line You can use your shield to stop oncoming enemies in their tracks.
Benefit: When a creature of your size or smaller moves within your reach while you are wielding a shield, you can use your reaction to cause the creature to end its movement for the turn.

Improved Critical [martial]
Requirement: Level 5
You may score critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20 assuming your attack hits the target.

Improved Initiative
You have advantage on initiative rolls.

Inspiring Leader.
Prerequisite: Charisma 13 or higher.
You can give an inspiring speech shoring up their resolve to fight. When you choose to do so up to 6 creatures within 30’ of you gain temporary hit points equal to your level plus charisma modifier. This ability can be used once per long rest.

Keen Mind
You always know which way is north
You always know the number of hours left between sunrise and sunset.
You can accurately recall anything you have seen or heard in the last month.

Iron Will
You gain advantage on will saves.

Lady Luck
Fortune favors you
Benefit: Three times per long rest you may reroll an ability check, attack roll, saving throw or skill check.

Lightning Reflexes
You gain advantage on reflex saves.

Linguist
You learn 3 languages of your choice.

Martial Arts
Your unarmed strike functions as a light finesse weapon with which you have proficiency. Your unarmed strike deals 1d6 points of damage.

Militia
Requirement: Proficient with simple weapons
You are proficient with martial weapons.

Mobile
Your opponents have disadvantage to hit you when you trigger an attack of opportunity.

Mounted Combatant
While on a mount you gain the following benefits.
You have advantage on any attacks made against an unmounted foe that is smaller than your mount.
You can force any attacks directed at your mount to target you instead.

Observant
If you can see a creatures mouth while it is speaking a language you can interpret what it is saying by reading its lips.
You have a +5 bonus to your passive wisdom (perception) and intelligence (investigation) checks.

Other Wordly
You have a fey or outsider bloodline somewhere in your family tree.
Benefit: You gain darkvision 60'. If you have darkvision already it increases by 60’

Precise Shot
You may take a -2 penalty to hit. Your ranged attacks deal +1 dice of damage.

Polearm Master
While using a spear, pike, glaive, or halberd other creatures entering your reach provoke an attack of opportunity. If the creature has moves at least 10’ or more any such attack that hits is a critical hit.
Power Attack
You may take a -2 penalty to hit with a weapon that is does not have the light or finesse property. You gain a +3 bonus to all melee attacks.

Rapid Shot
You can make two quick shots with a ranged weapon.
Benefit: When using a ranged weapon you may make an additional attack as a bonus action.

Rapid Strike
Benefit: When using a light weapon you may make an additional attack as a bonus action.

Second Chance [Halfling]
Requirement: Halfling
Benefit: Once per encounter as a reaction you can give an attacker disadvantage on their attack roll

Sharpshooter
Attacking at long range does not impose disadvantage on your ranged weapon attacks
Your ranged attacks ignore half cover and three quarters cover.

Shield Master
If you take the attack action you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you.

If you are subject to an effect that allows you to make a reflex saving throw for half damage you may use your reaction to take no damage interposing your shield between yourself and the source of the effect.

Shield Wall
If you are adjacent to another being using a shield you gain +2 AC.

Skill Focus [Expert]
Pick a skill you are trained in. You gain expertise on that skill (as a Rogue) You may take this feat multiple times

Skill Training [Expert]
Pick a two class skills, you are now considered proficient in their use. You may take this feat multiple times

Tough
Your constitution increases by +2

Weapon Finesse
You may add your dexterity to hit damage rolls with light and finesse weapons instead of your strength modifier.

Weapon Proficiency: Simple [Martial]
You are proficient with simple weapons
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
In my homebrew I have added bonus feats a'la 3.5. But those bonus feats are expert or martial. Fighter gets more martial ones but still gets a few expert ones, Rogue is reversed but gets them at the old 3.5 fighter rate and the other classes it varies with primary spell casters not getting that much similar to 5E but only microfeats. Expert feats are skill focus, skill training, extra languages, utility and healing. Tempeted to just have feat/talent/feat/talent for classes like Rogues and Fighters. Go with the 4E/SESE/PF micro feat level 1,3,5,7,9 for a bonus feat.
Definitely some interesting thoughts there
I overhauled my feats as well invented some, merged weak 3.5 ones, ported some from 4E and Star Wars Saga and split some 5E ones up. .

From 5E capped ability scores, advantage/disadvantage, +2 seem to be good ideas eliminating a lot of the crud stuff.

Think I added an ability score improvement feat as will but you only get +1 since you get a lot more microfeats than 5E ASI's.
+1s are probably not much needed in most contexts but there seems to be a call for +1 per tier type bonuses. (a bonus that is always on seems a different thing... situational ones of +2 could be minimum)

The thing I thought about 20 / 20 hindsight wise for 4e was making all powers "feats" a normal spell is a ritual and you can know it and spend the time and money which may be minor to do it but its really changed in value. Using it in combat context without components is a feat of magic its effectively "fast casting X". In other words in this model your mages get the same number of feats as others theirs are just spent to learn fast casting them rituals. (tis sort of the Elric of Melnibone model of "heroic class magic" all casters do rituals heroics have learned the tricks that allow them to do them in extraordinary immediate ways.)

Character changes that arent "active" are features not feats and are gained separately its a bit different than in combat and out of combat distinction but seems related. If the thing grants a significantly new action... its a feat.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Alert
You can’t be surprised while conscious
Other creatures do not gain advantage to hit you if they are hidden from you.
Someone was complaining that modern D&D undermines Strategic choices entirely and the advancing ease of preventing surprise seemed symptomatic of it. A warlord in 4e could get the party so it fairly reliably had initiative over the bad guys every encounter... if surprise was still an option this could allow one to up the conflict difficulty due to situational factors fairly easily. Rituals being way too valuable have been reduced (in 4e anyway) and that I think is a good thing even if it has a dampening of strategic they still do contribute, as can in theory the martial practices. One still has environmental factors allow leveraging of strategy ie preparation so that is another element (the old 1e land higher ground type bonus these are perhaps less pervasive but more interesting) .
 

Zardnaar

Explorer
Your level 13
the square root of 1 million 1000
the cube root of 1 million 100
the quad root of 1 million 31.6+
Someone was complaining that modern D&D undermines Strategic choices entirely and the advancing ease of preventing surprise seemed symptomatic of it. A warlord in 4e could get the party so it fairly reliably had initiative over the bad guys every encounter... if surprise was still an option this could allow one to up the conflict difficulty due to situational factors fairly easily. Rituals being way too valuable have been reduced (in 4e anyway) and that I think is a good thing even if it has a dampening of strategic they still do contribute, as can in theory the martial practices. One still has environmental factors allow leveraging of strategy ie preparation so that is another element (the old 1e land higher ground type bonus these are perhaps less pervasive but more interesting) .
Yeah I ported that one from 5E. Might want to dump it. In 5E I think there are 5 blatantly overpowered feats. Alerts not one of the but in a different context yeah. It's more annoying than outright broken.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Yeah I ported that one from 5E. Might want to dump it. In 5E I think there are 5 blatantly overpowered feats. Alerts not one of the but in a different context yeah. It's more annoying than outright broken.
Yeah its not about being overpowered "exactly" there arent a bunch of things that explicitly induce surprise and I just think we need to be aware that it restricts what might be the broadest strategic option from being in the DM arsenal. And it might have been why its initial incarnation in 4e wasn't such huge thing. Players could likely gain surprise via other strategic choices I already mentioned (it might even require skill challenge to acquire it)
 

Yaarel

Explorer
@Zardnaar, I basically like these half-feats.

The main issues are:

Flavor-neutral mechanics
Avoid baking setting flavor into the mechanics. Rely more on ‘flavor text boxes’ for flavor. Especially avoid terms like ‘gods’ within the actual mechanics themselves.

Defenses
In 4e, there are no such things as ‘saves’. Instead, the attacker always rolls. The defender has ‘defenses’. Ideally, the redundant defenses AC and Reflex consolidate into one defense. Meanwhile Perception becomes a formal defense, since 4e refers to ‘passive perception’ highly frequently.

• AC/Reflex defense
• Fortitude defense
• Will defense
• Perception defense

Consolidate micro-bonuses
5e has the right idea of eliminating and reducing most bonuses, while allowing the DM to use ‘advantage’ on the fly to represent a situational bonus. Untyped bonuses must cease to exist. The list of bonus types needs to be few and impossible to stack.

• Ability bonus type (Strength, Intelligence, etcetera)
• Proficiency bonus type (leveling)
• Magic bonus type (same thing as tier bonus type)
• Item bonus type (armor/shield, defense amulet, special tools, etcetera)
• Expertise bonus type (special training, insight, Bless spell, preparation, etcetera)

Probably these are the only bonuses the game will ever need.

Abilities
Ability scores must be equal to each other in power, and saliently mutually exclusive. Their math must be identical.

Theater of the Mind
Too many references to micro-moves of 5 feet and 10 feet, create a dependence on a grid, and make Theater of the Mind difficult to implement. Rethink how to characterize these kinds of mechanics within the distance categories of:

• Melee
• Close (within 30 feet)
• Far (beyond 30 feet)

Elf
make ‘Elf’ a creature type, like Giant, Dragon, Elemental, etcetera. Thus the ‘Elf’ can include very different races with very different mechanics. My nomenclature preference.

• Eladrin Elf (Cha): Sun Elf Cha-Int, Moon Elf Cha-Dex
• Sylvan Elf (Dex): High Elf Dex-Int, Wood Elf Dex-Wis, Grugach Elf Dex-Str
• Drow Elf (Dex-Cha)

Keywords

I like labeling each feat with keywords, like [martial], [elf], etcetera. Pretty much every feat here is nonmagical thus gains the [martial] source tag.



Here are comments on individual half feats.



Divine Boon: ‘gods’. Mystic Boon. Make the flavor of 4e mechanics ‘setting neutral’. Even then make the flavor more inclusive. A Paladin might have a code of conduct without any ‘gods’, polytheism might not exist in a particular setting. Fey creatures might lack gods and only care about archfey. Even references to religion can be more inclusive, philosophical, cosmic forces, Primal animistic communities, and so on. A Boon might derive from Arcane power or Psionic Power.

Saving throws: that is, defenses. Attacker always rolls.

Divine Boon
The gods favor you and have blessed you with a portion of their power. You gain a +2 bonus on all saving throws.



Actor: insight. Make the ‘versus Insight’, be ‘versus Perception’, and make Perception a formal defense (like AC/Reflex, Fortitude, and Will).

Actor
You have advantage on any deception or performance checks made to pass yourself off as a different person.
You can mimic the sounds made by another person or creature. You must have heard the person or creature talking or making those sounds for at least a minute. A successful charisma (deception) check opposed by a wisdom (insight) check indicates success.



Alert: actual immunity to surprise might be too much, as it eliminates an important Martial tactic.

Alert
You can’t be surprised while conscious
Other creatures do not gain advantage to hit you if they are hidden from you.



Armor Proficiencies: Consolidate the armors into only two feats.

• Light Armor and Shield Proficiency
• Medium Armor and Heavy Armor Proficiency

Spending two half-feats gets everything. This helps avoids a feat tax for many build concepts.

Armor Proficiency: Light [Martial]
You are proficient with light armor.

Armor Proficiency Medium [Martial]
Requirement: Armor Proficiency: Light
You are proficient with medium armor

Armor Proficiency: Heavy [Martial]
Requirement: Armor Proficiency: Medium
You are proficient with heavy armor

Armored Defense [martial]
Requirement: Proficient in Medium or Heavy Armor
You gain a +1 bonus to AC while wearing armor.



Athlete: The micro-measurments of movement create dependence on a grid, and makes Theater of the Mind difficult. This is a feat, just give the ability to stand for free during any move.

Athlete
When you are prone standing up only uses 5’ of your movement
You may climb surfaces at full speed and have advantage on any climb checks.



Charger: ‘use dash as a bonus action’, needs a ‘such as’ example of who would normally do this. The example serves to make the intent of the rules more obvious, so there is no rules mastery required to make sense of who would or wouldnt use this feat.

Charger
If you use the dash action, as a bonus action you gain an extra 1d6 damage.



[martial]: I am cool with feats being labeled by source, but pretty much all of these feats are ‘martial’. They are feats, so an arcane Swordmage can probably take this martial Cleave feat.

Cleave [martial]
Once per round when you reduce an opponent to 0 hit points or less with a melee attack you can make an additional attack against an opponent within reach as a bonus action.


Combat Expertise: the name of this feat seems confusing. Normally a reader assumes ‘combat expertise’ makes one better at combat attacks, but this feat actually makes one worse at attacks, a ‘disadvantage’. The gain for this impairment is to become more difficult to be hit by others. So it is really ‘Combat Defense’. But I consider this not worth a feat. The tradeoff is a wash. It seems more like a normal standard ability that any character could do for free − choose to fight defensively.

Combat Expertise
You gain disadvantage on your attack rolls. Your opponents gain disadvantage on attack rolls against you. You can only use this feat while making melee attacks.



[martial]: Pretty much all of the feats in the post are ‘martial’. An arcane Swordmage, a divine Paladin, a psionic (?) Bard, can all probably select this ‘martial’ feat.

Dagger Master: I think I understand the logic of making a low-damage weapon more viable. But I worry about how daggers might interact with other feats and features, making the +2 to hit less balanced. But a +2 might be a decent standard for d20 feat bonus anyway.

Dagger Master [martial]
You gain [score]gains[/score] a +2 bonus to initiative and +2 bonus to hit when using daggers.



Dual Wielder: seems ok, but it is obviously of interest to char op damage output.

Dual Wielder
You master fighting with two weapons gaining the following benefits.
You gain +1 AC
You can use two weapons even when one of the weapons is not a light or finesse weapon.



Dodge: reflexes. Consider consolidating the AC and the Reflex into a single defense, that can benefit from Dexterity dodging and armor deflecting.

[martial]: pretty much every one of these feats is martial.

Dodge: +1. Avoid too many micro bonuses. Have a small number of possible bonuses, and make it impossible for them to stack. 5e had the right idea of eliminating bonuses and reducing almost all situational bonuses to ‘advantage’.

Consider the possibility of a dodge feat, that as a reaction per short rest, can boost the AC/Reflex defense, or allow a counter attack to negate the attack that would have hit, or something like that.

Dodge [Martial]
Your training and reflexes allow you to react swiftly to avoid an opponents’ attacks.
Requirement: Dex 13.
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to your AC.


Dwarven Resilience: I like it, but since it only affects one attack, maybe make it boost the Fortitude defense too?

Dwarven Resilience
As a reaction you gain resistance to an incoming source of damage. This ability can be used one per short rest.



[dwarf]: pretty much anyone could take this feat.
[martial]: pretty much anyone could take this feat.

Dwarven Weapon Training: Depends on the particular dwarven ‘culture’. Perhaps allow the dwarf to use Constitution instead of Strength for attacks and damage.

Weapon: I would probably separate the weapon types, allowing a different weapon mechanic for each weapon concept. Dwarven Hammer Training. Dwarven Miningpick Training. Dwarven Woodaxe Training.

Dwarven Weapon Training [Dwarf, Martial)]
Requirement: Dwarf
Benefit: You gain proficiency and a +2 bonus to damage rolls with axes and hammers.


Elven Grace: ‘Grace’ can mean a lot of things. I would call this feat ‘Elven Weapon Training’. Except split the feat up for different weapon types. Longsword Training. Longbow Training.

Elven: I like how 4e splits up Elf, Eladrin, and Drow, each with completely separate mechanics, abilities, and traits. But I dislike how 4e stops calling Eladrin and Drow an ‘Elf’. Make ‘Elf’ a Creature Type, like Dragon, Giant, Elemental, and so on. That way, races that are completely different from each other can still be referred to as ‘Elf’.

Elf: elf or elf ancestry or elf upbringing

Suggested version of this feat:

High Elf Longsword Training [elf, arcane, martial]
You gain proficiency with the Longsword, your magic bonus increases by 1 to hit using it, and you can substitute Dexterity or Intelligence in place of Strength for its attack and damage.

And so on for each weapon culture.

Elven Grace
You gain a +1 bonus to hit while using a long sword, short sword, longbow or shortbow.

Elven Soldier [Elf, Martial]
Requirement: Elf
Benefit: You gain proficiency and a +2 bonus to all damage rolls with long swords and all spears.



Fleet of Foot: The micro-measures of movement create grid dependency and make Theater of the Mind more difficult to achieve using this gaming system. Perhaps something like the following instead.

Fleet of Foot
When you use your movement to avoid opportunity attacks, you can move again. In a race, you can outdistance the speed of a typical human (30) or slower.

Fleet Foot
Your base speed increases by 10’.



Fine.

First Strike
You have advantage against anyone you beat for initiative in the first round of combat


Great [Defense]: Wait, there is no such thing as a 4e fortitude ‘save’. It is a defense score. In any case, as defenses AC/Reflex, Fortitude, Perception, and Will, need to all use the same combat math. So an ‘advantage’ on all AC/Reflex would be wildly broken. The other defenses, Great AC/Reflex, Great Will, and Great Perception should have identical math.

Great Fortitude
You gain advantage on fortitude saves.



Great Weapon Master: boring but balanced, and appeals to char op. Possibly too many microbonuses are better to avoid.

Great Weapon Master
You gain a +2 bonus to damage while using a two handed weapon.



Halfling Skirmisher: See Elf Grace, aka ‘Wood Elf Longsword Training’. Split weapons into separate weapon concepts, for separate cultures.

Halfling Skirmisher [Halfling, Martial)
You gain a +2 bonus to hit with all slings and thrown weapons.



Heroic Inspiration: Call it ‘Human Inspiration’. The mechanics seem fine. Except there are ‘defenses’ and no ‘saves’.

Heroic Inspiration [Human]
You gain advantage on an attack roll, saving throw or ability check. You may not use this abilty again until you complete a short rest.
 
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Zardnaar

Explorer
The feats were copy and pasted from my homebrew hence saves. Even in a 4E clone I would use saves over NADs, due to copyright. Some clones also do this and have invented their own save systems or use fort/ref/will. My homebrew is kind of a mash up of B/X and 3E using microfeats.

Consolidating red and AC into 1 can work but once again its only been done in 1 game- Star Wars Saga Edition. Also Rogues have ways to target non AC defences so ther is that.
 

MoonSong

Explorer
The feats were copy and pasted from my homebrew hence saves. Even in a 4E clone I would use saves over NADs, due to copyright. Some clones also do this and have invented their own save systems or use fort/ref/will. My homebrew is kind of a mash up of B/X and 3E using microfeats.

Consolidating red and AC into 1 can work but once again its only been done in 1 game- Star Wars Saga Edition. Also Rogues have ways to target non AC defences so ther is that.
I keep them as saves, Reflex save, fortitude save, Will save. I just redefine saves as DCs for enemy attacks. The beauty of this all is that 4e has such a precise and clinical language -in order to avoid interpretation- that natural language can describe basically the same while looking wildly different.
 
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Yaarel

Explorer
Even in a 4E clone I would use saves over NADs, due to copyright.
Math cannot be copyrighted. If you like defenses better, then there is no problem using them. The terms ‘Fortitude’, ‘Reflex’, ‘Will’, and ‘Perception’ are all legally available, regardless of how we define these terms.


Consolidating ref and AC into 1 can work, but once again its only been done in 1 game- Star Wars Saga Edition. Also Rogues have ways to target non AC defenses so ther is that.
Cool about Star Wars.

If going with defenses, then it is worth combining Ref and AC as a single defense.
 

Zardnaar

Explorer
Math cannot be copyrighted. If you like defenses better, then there is no problem using them. The terms ‘Fortitude’, ‘Reflex’, ‘Will’, and ‘Perception’ are all legally available, regardless of how we define these terms.



Cool about Star Wars.

If going with defenses, then it is worth combining Ref and AC as a single defense.
Game mechanics can be though or the expressions of them. 4E and SWSE are not OGL, hence the idea of using 3E or 5E to clone them. NADS basically have to be saves, at least if you want to publish and its a lot safer.

A Rogue attack that targets Ref defence is a reflex save that uses 5E styles. Its basically the same concept, the 5E proficincy bonus would apply to all saves though a'la 4E.

If you are wrong (or even if you are right and can you pay lawyers fees?), thats a lot of rework to go throw and add in saves anyway. You can always have a conversion document somewhere for people who prefers NADs. As I said you need to clone the concept not the exact mechanical expression of it in 4E. A few OSR clones outright use 3E mechanics or something close to it.

Depends if its for homebrew or not. Homebrew do whatever you like.
 

Yaarel

Explorer
Game mechanics can be though or the expressions of them. 4E and SWSE are not OGL, hence the idea of using 3E or 5E to clone them. NADS basically have to be saves, at least if you want to publish and its a lot safer.

A Rogue attack that targets Ref defence is a reflex save that uses 5E styles. Its basically the same concept, the 5E proficincy bonus would apply to all saves though a'la 4E.

If you are wrong (or even if you are right and can you pay lawyers fees?), thats a lot of rework to go throw and add in saves anyway. You can always have a conversion document somewhere for people who prefers NADs. As I said you need to clone the concept not the exact mechanical expression of it in 4E. A few OSR clones outright use 3E mechanics or something close to it.

Depends if its for homebrew or not. Homebrew do whatever you like.
The only difference between a ‘defense’ and a ‘save’ is a d20 versus a base 10.

You can literally call it a ‘Will save’ and then define ‘Will save’ as ‘10 + your Wisdom or Charisma bonus’.
 

Zardnaar

Explorer
@Zardnaar

I started a new thread as a ‘wiki thread’ that anybody can edit.

This allows multiple people to contribute to the clone, so not all of the burden is on one person.

Have a look at the thread and add and change it freely.

enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?659990-Open-4e-Style&p=7619019#post7619019

8 if you use 5E system;)

Thats not a save though at least like the OSR games and 3E use it. IDK if it would hold up in court. I think some of you may be to hell bent on using things from the 4E PHB as is. Outside personal preference its basically the same thing, just saves are a lot safer ground legally.
 

Tony Vargas

Adventurer
Game mechanics can be though or the expressions of them. 4E and SWSE are not OGL, .
While the fact 4e isn't OGL means it can't be cloned the way PF cloned 3.5, game mechanics like defenses other than AC aren't an impediment: 13A uses them, for one instance.
 

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