D&D 4E 4e Clone − help create it!

Garthanos · Jun 30, 2019

Yaarel said:
The term ‘encounter’ is a normal 5e term. By itself, it refers to anything the adventuring party meets.

But the term ‘combat encounter’ specifically refers to ‘a clash between two sides’, organizing into a ‘cycle of rounds and turns’ that begins ‘when everyone rolls initiative’ (PH 189).

So, it seems appropriate to refer to these powers as ‘per combat encounter’, abbreviated ‘• combat’:

They could be used outside of combat too. That mighty leap and scrambling climb even though level 2 come in handy

To be honest I was playing the lets popup the verisimilitude angle with this we could call them per encounter.

Martial Tricks this cannot be applied to anyone who has seen it recently (z-man came up with better [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]verbiage[/FONT] for it)
Druids or Environment Straining casters your magics require a scene change to refresh.
Clerics/Warlocks you require a short 1 minute re-tainting or purification ritual to clear your spirit (a potion might allow this once in a while for a cost)
Paladins recover by defeating bad guys after every fight because you are serving your god that way

Yaarel · Jun 30, 2019

Tony Vargas said:
Authority/social-position is one of the many thing that raises some hackles about the class.

My intention is for the ‘Skill’ levels to be highly impacting to define the out-of-combat identity of a player character. The class levels themselves will not handle skills, except for one inherent musthave skill (Fighter Athletics, Wizard Arcana, Rogue Stealth, etcetera).

So the Knight/Warlord class description will suggest typical livelihoods/backgrounds, such as ‘Noble’ for a highborn Knight, but also ‘Farmer’ for a rags-to-riches Knight, and ‘Grey Elf Griffon Rider’ for a nonhuman Knight/Warlord. And so on. But players can choose whatever livelihood they wish.

Each livelihood defines the skill set (probably three or four skills) along with a special noncombat privilege or capability.

Importantly, the livelihood defines the identity of the character outside of combat. Especially, the player is encouraged to decide the central persons and places that the character bonds with, such as a mentor or school, or noble family, or remote farm, alchemist shoppe, armorer smith, wilderness hunter and tracker, or whoever or wherever, that seems appropriate for a level 1 character to have affinity with.

Each skill will think more clearly about how it can be used in combat and out of combat. For example, the History skill in the sense of military history, should be able to identify combat vulnerabilities among humanoids, similar to how Nature can among natural creatures, and Arcana can among extraplanar creatures. Arcana can as a ritual detect the presence of magic. I would use it for identifying a magic item, even tho in 5e this is automatic during a short rest. Medicine needs to explicitly detect disease and poison. And so on. These ‘Worldly’ skills work well when they are impactful, with multiple examples of how to use them.

Skills and their livelihood are important, especially in settings where combats are less frequent.

Players are encouraged to think about how the respective livelihoods got their characters to meet each other and eventually venture out together.

The reason I am saying ‘livelihood’ rather than ‘background’ is because the skill set is ongoing and advances while leveling. At higher levels, the skill levels allow the player characters to gather a cohort (family members, students, hirelings, soldiers) and so on.

Yaarel · Jun 30, 2019

Garthanos said:
They could be used outside of combat too. That mighty leap and scrambling climb even though level 2 come in handy.

To be honest I was playing the lets popup the verisimilitude angle with this we could call them per encounter.

Yeah. If the powers can be used in *any* encounter, including combat, social, and exploration, then it seems fine to call these ‘per encounter’ powers, according to normal 5e terminology.

To me, the word ‘power’ connotes ‘superpower’. I am happy with this as an all-purpose term. At the same time, to be more diplomatic, I feel it helps to emphasize the nonmagic aspects of such powers. So there are nonmagical ‘capabilities’ versus magical ‘spells’, and nonmagical ‘maneuvers’ versus magical ‘cantrips’.

Garthanos said:
Martial Tricks this cannot be applied to anyone who has seen it recently (z-man came up with better verbiage for it)
Druids or Environment Straining casters your magics require a scene change to refresh.
Clerics/Warlocks you require a short 1 minute re-tainting or purification ritual to clear your spirit (a potion might allow this once in a while for a cost)
Paladins recover by defeating bad guys after every fight because you are serving your god that way

Personally, I dont see much difference between ‘per encounter’ and ‘per rest’. Besides being able to use a power in two encounters in a row, why does it matter? Even if per rest, a party can often rest after each encounter if necessary.

In any case, it seems to me possible, that class can have both per-encounter and per-rest capabilities. The per-rest ones connote a flavor of exhaustion and recovery. The per-encounter ones connote exploiting a circumstantial opportunity.

In this case, it helps for the description to specify what that circumstantial opportunity is. In the case of a trick, the foes dont expect it. In this case, targeting Intelligence helps to convey this flavor.

Unfortunately, only the nonmagical ‘Worldly’ capabilities require careful rationalization via mechanics and flavor.

Magical spells have no problem being ‘per encounter’. For spontaneous magic (Norse, etcetera), the caster must be in the ‘moment’, and when the moment changes so must the mental focus of the caster. For ritualistic magic (Hellenistic, etcetera), specific times and places can be part of the ‘magical ingredients’, so the actual casting is slightly different each time.

4e allowed the player to narrate the reactions of the targets in impromptu way − that made sense at that specific moment. But in 5e, the capability needs to specify the flavor of what exactly happens to the targets, routinely in every encounter.

Yaarel · Jun 30, 2019

For what it is worth, the 5e Players Handbook explicitly allows a ‘feint’ to happen, no-save, no-narrative requirement. The Help action hand waives any details, for the mechanical ability to grant advantage to an ally for the next combat attack.

The 5e Help action seems very warlordy to me.

Garthanos · Jun 30, 2019

Yaarel said:
Personally, I dont see much difference between ‘per encounter’ and ‘per rest’. Besides being able to use a power in two encounters in a row, why does it matter? Even if per rest, a party can often rest after each encounter if necessary.

A short rest in 5e is a 1 hour thing and very limited how often you can do it... ie its not like per encounter - though I know 4e players who treat it the same.

In general, over the course of a full adventuring day, the party will likely need to take two short rests, about one-third and two-thirds of the way through the day. (Basic Rules, DM, p. 57)

Its basically lunch and supper breaks

Garthanos · Jun 30, 2019

Yaarel said:
In any case, it seems to me possible, that class can have both per-encounter and per-rest capabilities. The per-rest ones connote a flavor of exhaustion and recovery. The per-encounter ones connote exploiting a circumstantial opportunity.

In this case, it helps for the description to specify what that circumstantial opportunity is. In the case of a trick, the foes dont expect it. In this case, targeting Intelligence helps to convey this flavor.

Totally the above

Yaarel said:
Unfortunately, only the nonmagical ‘Worldly’ capabilities require careful rationalization via mechanics and flavor.

makes me go hmmmmmm

Yaarel said:
Magical spells have no problem being ‘per encounter’. For spontaneous magic (Norse, etcetera), the caster must be in the ‘moment’, and when the moment changes so must the mental focus of the caster. For ritualistic magic (Hellenistic, etcetera), specific times and places can be part of the ‘magical ingredients’, so the actual casting is slightly different each time.

4e allowed the player to narrate the reactions of the targets in impromptu way − that made sense at that specific moment. But in 5e, the capability needs to specify the flavor of what exactly happens to the targets, routinely in every encounter.

Also hmmmmmm

Garthanos · Jun 30, 2019

Yaarel said:
For what it is worth, the 5e Players Handbook explicitly allows a ‘feint’ to happen, no-save, no-narrative requirement. The Help action hand waives any details, for the mechanical ability to grant advantage to an ally for the next combat attack. .

Spent every single multi-attack for that now did you ?

Yaarel · Jun 30, 2019

Garthanos said:
A short rest in 5e is a 1 hour thing and very limited how often you can do it... ie its not like per encounter - though I know 4e players who treat it the same.

In general, over the course of a full adventuring day, the party will likely need to take two short rests, about one-third and two-thirds of the way through the day. (Basic Rules, DM, p. 57)

Its basically lunch and supper breaks

A meal (lunch or supper) is a great way to concretize a short rest.

Even by the 5e description. If there are normally six encounters per day, that means there will be two encounters per short rest. How is ‘per encounter’ significantly different from ‘per rest’.

Eight encounters per day is rare. In my experience, from one to four encounters per day is typical. So, a short rest seems equivalent to me.

Yaarel · Jun 30, 2019

Garthanos said:
Spent every single multi-attack for that now did you ?

I mean, the rationale is the same one that Warlord powers use. This ‘feint’ rationalizes the granting of the advantage mechanic. The Help action is defacto a martial maneuver at-will, even if a basic one.

It is even a ‘trick’, that automatically succeeds without any save versus a Deception skill check. The mechanics just happen, and the player or DM may or may not bother to narrate it.

Garthanos · Jul 1, 2019

Yaarel said:
I mean, the rationale is the same one that Warlord powers use. This ‘feint’ rationalizes the granting of the advantage mechanic. The Help action is defacto a martial maneuver at-will, even if a basic one.

Sure its directly related to fighting next to someone and distracting their enemy so they get a better chance at hitting.

The warlord however needs his help action to be at range probably 50 feet ... he can distract an enemy and point out openings using mad tactical skills may not even need to communicate them he just manipulated the scene.

The point I was making though as a fighter class character like the Battlemaster unless you are unable to reach an enemy or the ally is a rogue with some VERY serious bapem ... you do not want to spend an action on this cause you got your own serious bapem and high chances of that working... not much at all is gained.