Why Rules Lawyering Is a Negative Term

Maxperson · Jul 1, 2019

Hussar said:
Oh no. That was 100% personal based on the rules interpretations you’ve tried to argue in the past.

Then either delete it, or I'll report it in the morning when I wake up. I won't allow personal attacks like that.

Celebrim · Jul 1, 2019

MoonSong said:
I don't consider being a Rules Lawyer something negative, just one way to play. What many posters here have an actual problem is not with rules lawyerism is with munchkinism. A rules lawyer finds loopholes and exploits, however annoying that might be. What a rules lawyer doesn't do is outright cheat.

The thing is, a rules lawyer as we've defined the term goes hand and hand with cheating.

If you don't cheat, and you don't consider arguing with the DM part of the resolution process of the game, then you are not a Rules Lawyer.

The term for someone who exploits the rules but is not cheaty about it is an Optimizer.

And Optimizers are OK. I mean, they make great play testers, I'll give them that. They will find the points in your rules where you've left loopholes, exploits, and so forth. And if they are actually pretty good at it, what they give you is some amount of insurance against a TPK, because they can often win through even bad luck. And I expect all players to do at least some sort of optimization, because it's not fair to deliberately play a weak link in the team.

However, it's a short step from Optimizer to Rules Lawyer, and that step is simply this: you decide that your rules interpretation of some ambiguous language has precedence over the DM's interpretation, and that the DM is just trying to screw you over. That decision tends to mean that you are springing on the DM your loophole with the expectation of validation, or else playing under your own rulings without confirmation by the DM. And both of those things get pretty 'cheaty', and examples of that have been discussed in this thread.

And the problem that I have with your profession is that if you just told me that you were basically an Optimizer, I would assume that you were the sort of person who wouldn't blow things out of proportion and if the DM didn't agree with you over some matter you'd take it in stride. But you've also told me you are a Drama Queen, so essentially what you are telling everyone on these boards is that you are a dysfunctional person who blows small things out of proportion.

It's hard to understand hos you consider that statement anything but a profession of weakness and guilt, to be accompanied by a litany of "mi culpa, mia maxima culpa".

UPDATE: There has been a quibble about my language. If you don't like the word 'Optimizer', feel free to substitute the term of art 'Power Gamer' in the above discussion. For my purposes, the argument remains the same.

Maxperson · Jul 1, 2019

Celebrim said:
The thing is, a rules lawyer as we've defined the term goes hand and hand with cheating.

If you don't cheat, and you don't consider arguing with the DM part of the resolution process of the game, then you are not a Rules Lawyer.

The term for someone who exploits the rules but is not cheaty about it is an Optimizer.

And Optimizers are OK. I mean, they make great play testers, I'll give them that. They will find the points in your rules where you've left loopholes, exploits, and so forth. And if they are actually pretty good at it, what they give you is some amount of insurance against a TPK, because they can often win through even bad luck. And I expect all players to do at least some sort of optimization, because it's not fair to deliberately play a weak link in the team.

Exploiting rules and loopholes makes you a power gamer. Optimizing is just picking the best option, not exploiting the game.

lowkey13 · Jul 1, 2019

*Deleted by user*

Celebrim · Jul 1, 2019

Maxperson said:
Exploiting rules and loopholes makes you a power gamer. Optimizing is just picking the best option, not exploiting the game.

I'm not going to quibble with that. Optimizer and Power Gamer are closely related terms, synonyms or near synonyms, with potentially negative connotations. Power Gamer generally just means something like, "A player focused on making his character as powerful as possible.", which pretty much is what Optimizer means. So basically, we'd be arguing over which slang term carries the most negative connotation. If you think Power Gamer is the more negative, OK, let's go with that. So long as I'm understood, I don't care what words we use.

Oofta · Jul 1, 2019

lowkey13 said:
I mean, maybe there is an exception- the altruistic, helpful, rules guru that everyone loves having at their table. Much like the person who went home to roll up their Paladin and got the 17 in Charisma and the 18/00 strength, I am sure it happened, somehow, maybe.

Hey now. I only had to roll up a few hundred characters to get those numbers. All the rest are farmers or died on their way to the dungeon. Honest! :rant:

Fanaelialae · Jul 1, 2019

lowkey13 said:
There's really a lot here, and I'm trying to think of how to address it.

There's a famous saying, "If you sit down at a poker table, and you don't know who the mark is, you're the mark."

(Sometimes generalized to, "If you can't spot the sucker, it's you.")

It's also used in competitive classes (see, e.g., law school)- "If you don't know who the gunner is, you're the gunner."*

I think that these phrases, and common variations of them, go to the issue of self-awareness. We are all the protagonists in our own stories, aren't we?

No one thinks that they are a bad rules lawyer- no. We are the good rules guru! We are the individual who the DM ... relies on. Who really knows the rules. Who helpfully points out when there is a rules issue, and only ... reluctantly ... engages in a lengthy disruptive conversation when "the ruling is unfair and hurting the fun at the table."

It's not being a rules lawyer ... IT'S ALTRUISM!

Really, it's shocking that anyone could possibly have a bad opinion of people that just know the rules, and stand up the tyranny of BAD DMs with their LACK OF RULES KNOWLEDGE.

And, of course, how do you know the DM is bad? Because only a bad DM "will take it personally."

Again, not to single you out, because several people have made this argument (and few as eloquently as you have) and I am sure you are quite delightful at the table! But it's like everything else. There are, in fact, bad DMs out there- but they wouldn't say that, they would just that they need to be forceful because of REASONS.

Just like no one would say that they are the bad rules lawyer. Every ... single ... time ... they would believe that they have been justified. But, IMO, no amount of rules lawyering saves you from a bad DM.

None.

We all have to do what we have to do, but anyone who thinks that their rules lawyering is met with acclaim and the hosannas of a grateful public might want to ask why they have been the subject of such vitriol for over 40 years.

I mean, maybe there is an exception- the altruistic, helpful, rules guru that everyone loves having at their table. Much like the person who went home to roll up their Paladin and got the 17 in Charisma and the 18/00 strength, I am sure it happened, somehow, maybe.

*A gunner is a person who tries to answer every question, show off their knowledge, etc.

You're not wrong. I'm more than willing to admit that there have been times that I went too far and made the game less fun for everyone. In the heat of the moment I indulged in self rightousness. I did my best to admit when I was in the wrong and learn from my mistakes though.

I don't consider it to be particularly altruistic. I did it because I wanted myself and others to have a good time at the table. My group didn't name me Rules Lawyer of Altruism.

It's true that we're each the hero of our own stories. It's also true that human beings love to view things as black or white, good or bad. It's how our brains are wired to think, and it takes effort to learn to find the nuance in things.

As to rules lawyering not saving you from bad DMing, based on my experience I'm forced to disagree. There were multiple occasions where the DM did change his ruling based on my pushback. Certainly not always. But at least some of the time a call that would have ruined my and/or another player's night was reversed and we all got to enjoy that night. That is not nothing.

Maybe I'm unique, though I doubt it. But the fact that my friend had Rules Lawyer of Justice engraved on my groomsman's giftfor his wedding tells me that my efforts did not go entirely unappreciated at the very least.

As to those who are associating Rules Lawyering with cheating, I don't see a strong correlation. That hasn't been my experience at all. Perhaps most Cheaters are Rules Lawyers (I haven't had enough cheaters at my table to suggest a pattern) but that does not logically equate to most Rules Lawyers being Cheaters.

billd91 · Jul 1, 2019

Fanaelialae said:
As to those who are associating Rules Lawyering with cheating, I don't see a strong correlation. That hasn't been my experience at all. Perhaps most Cheaters are Rules Lawyers (I haven't had enough cheaters at my table to suggest a pattern) but that does not logically equate to most Rules Lawyers being Cheaters.

If you don't see the strong correlation, it probably has more to do with not being in touch with the common usage than anything else. I wouldn't say most cheaters are rule lawyers either. That's definitely just a subset of cheater.

But the idea that a rules lawyer is someone who digs for exploits and interpretations that are "technically correct" but questionable to a layman's reading of the rule (just like lawyers finding technical loopholes in the law) is very widespread in the hobby and has been for well over 20 years. All you have to do is look at the long-running Knights of the Dinner Table as a standalone comic and back in its early days in Shadis Magazine to see how long the idea has been around.

lowkey13 · Jul 1, 2019

*Deleted by user*

MoonSong · Jul 2, 2019

Celebrim said:
The thing is, a rules lawyer as we've defined the term goes hand and hand with cheating.

If you don't cheat, and you don't consider arguing with the DM part of the resolution process of the game, then you are not a Rules Lawyer.

If you need to cheat, it means you have a paper-thin case. Which means you aren't very good at finding loopholes. I stand my ground cheating= munchkin and not a rules lawyer.

However, it's a short step from Optimizer to Rules Lawyer, and that step is simply this: you decide that your rules interpretation of some ambiguous language has precedence over the DM's interpretation, and that the DM is just trying to screw you over. That decision tends to mean that you are springing on the DM your loophole with the expectation of validation, or else playing under your own rulings without confirmation by the DM. And both of those things get pretty 'cheaty', and examples of that have been discussed in this thread.

That's why you go for the most ironclad case you can build. In fact, many times these interpretations end up being validated one way or another. And if the DM is convinced am I really imposing my own interpretation? How different is that from gaming the DM? At least I'm playing by the book.(And I play by more of the rules than most as in my words: "Flavor is rules and rules create flavor")

And the problem that I have with your profession is that if you just told me that you were basically an Optimizer, I would assume that you were the sort of person who wouldn't blow things out of proportion and if the DM didn't agree with you over some matter you'd take it in stride. But you've also told me you are a Drama Queen, so essentially what you are telling everyone on these boards is that you are a dysfunctional person who blows small things out of proportion.

It's hard to understand hos you consider that statement anything but a profession of weakness and guilt, to be accompanied by a litany of "mi culpa, mia maxima culpa".

Why the assumption I'm dysfunctional? I'm perfectly functional thank you. It's just that when I break, I break, and won't let you forget it until you apologize -long enough for my liking n_n -.

(The full motto btw was "I'm a rules-lawyering drama queen, but not a munchkin. If you call me a munchkin I'll be upset. Don't make me upset.")

UPDATE: There has been a quibble about my language. If you don't like the word 'Optimizer', feel free to substitute the term of art 'Power Gamer' in the above discussion. For my purposes, the argument remains the same.

I disagree with both terms. Neither of them really fits considering I couldn't powergame to save my life. Real story, when I got invited to an epic game I came off with something I found was too much so I switched to something I considered more balanced... In the end not only my character is way below the power level of the party, the one I thought overpowered comes short too.

Now that I think of it, I probably resort to exploits in part to compensate my inability to powergame. -food for thought....-