Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
Oh no. That was 100% personal based on the rules interpretations you’ve tried to argue in the past.
Then either delete it, or I'll report it in the morning when I wake up. I won't allow personal attacks like that.
Oh no. That was 100% personal based on the rules interpretations you’ve tried to argue in the past.
I don't consider being a Rules Lawyer something negative, just one way to play. What many posters here have an actual problem is not with rules lawyerism is with munchkinism. A rules lawyer finds loopholes and exploits, however annoying that might be. What a rules lawyer doesn't do is outright cheat.
The thing is, a rules lawyer as we've defined the term goes hand and hand with cheating.
If you don't cheat, and you don't consider arguing with the DM part of the resolution process of the game, then you are not a Rules Lawyer.
The term for someone who exploits the rules but is not cheaty about it is an Optimizer.
And Optimizers are OK. I mean, they make great play testers, I'll give them that. They will find the points in your rules where you've left loopholes, exploits, and so forth. And if they are actually pretty good at it, what they give you is some amount of insurance against a TPK, because they can often win through even bad luck. And I expect all players to do at least some sort of optimization, because it's not fair to deliberately play a weak link in the team.
Exploiting rules and loopholes makes you a power gamer. Optimizing is just picking the best option, not exploiting the game.
I mean, maybe there is an exception- the altruistic, helpful, rules guru that everyone loves having at their table. Much like the person who went home to roll up their Paladin and got the 17 in Charisma and the 18/00 strength, I am sure it happened, somehow, maybe.
There's really a lot here, and I'm trying to think of how to address it.
There's a famous saying, "If you sit down at a poker table, and you don't know who the mark is, you're the mark."
(Sometimes generalized to, "If you can't spot the sucker, it's you.")
It's also used in competitive classes (see, e.g., law school)- "If you don't know who the gunner is, you're the gunner."*
I think that these phrases, and common variations of them, go to the issue of self-awareness. We are all the protagonists in our own stories, aren't we?
No one thinks that they are a bad rules lawyer- no. We are the good rules guru! We are the individual who the DM ... relies on. Who really knows the rules. Who helpfully points out when there is a rules issue, and only ... reluctantly ... engages in a lengthy disruptive conversation when "the ruling is unfair and hurting the fun at the table."
It's not being a rules lawyer ... IT'S ALTRUISM!
Really, it's shocking that anyone could possibly have a bad opinion of people that just know the rules, and stand up the tyranny of BAD DMs with their LACK OF RULES KNOWLEDGE.
And, of course, how do you know the DM is bad? Because only a bad DM "will take it personally."
Again, not to single you out, because several people have made this argument (and few as eloquently as you have) and I am sure you are quite delightful at the table! But it's like everything else. There are, in fact, bad DMs out there- but they wouldn't say that, they would just that they need to be forceful because of REASONS.
Just like no one would say that they are the bad rules lawyer. Every ... single ... time ... they would believe that they have been justified. But, IMO, no amount of rules lawyering saves you from a bad DM.
None.
We all have to do what we have to do, but anyone who thinks that their rules lawyering is met with acclaim and the hosannas of a grateful public might want to ask why they have been the subject of such vitriol for over 40 years.
I mean, maybe there is an exception- the altruistic, helpful, rules guru that everyone loves having at their table. Much like the person who went home to roll up their Paladin and got the 17 in Charisma and the 18/00 strength, I am sure it happened, somehow, maybe.
*A gunner is a person who tries to answer every question, show off their knowledge, etc.
As to those who are associating Rules Lawyering with cheating, I don't see a strong correlation. That hasn't been my experience at all. Perhaps most Cheaters are Rules Lawyers (I haven't had enough cheaters at my table to suggest a pattern) but that does not logically equate to most Rules Lawyers being Cheaters.
The thing is, a rules lawyer as we've defined the term goes hand and hand with cheating.
If you don't cheat, and you don't consider arguing with the DM part of the resolution process of the game, then you are not a Rules Lawyer.
That's why you go for the most ironclad case you can build. In fact, many times these interpretations end up being validated one way or another. And if the DM is convinced am I really imposing my own interpretation? How different is that from gaming the DM? At least I'm playing by the book.(And I play by more of the rules than most as in my words: "Flavor is rules and rules create flavor")However, it's a short step from Optimizer to Rules Lawyer, and that step is simply this: you decide that your rules interpretation of some ambiguous language has precedence over the DM's interpretation, and that the DM is just trying to screw you over. That decision tends to mean that you are springing on the DM your loophole with the expectation of validation, or else playing under your own rulings without confirmation by the DM. And both of those things get pretty 'cheaty', and examples of that have been discussed in this thread.
And the problem that I have with your profession is that if you just told me that you were basically an Optimizer, I would assume that you were the sort of person who wouldn't blow things out of proportion and if the DM didn't agree with you over some matter you'd take it in stride. But you've also told me you are a Drama Queen, so essentially what you are telling everyone on these boards is that you are a dysfunctional person who blows small things out of proportion.
It's hard to understand hos you consider that statement anything but a profession of weakness and guilt, to be accompanied by a litany of "mi culpa, mia maxima culpa".
I disagree with both terms. Neither of them really fits considering I couldn't powergame to save my life. Real story, when I got invited to an epic game I came off with something I found was too much so I switched to something I considered more balanced... In the end not only my character is way below the power level of the party, the one I thought overpowered comes short too.UPDATE: There has been a quibble about my language. If you don't like the word 'Optimizer', feel free to substitute the term of art 'Power Gamer' in the above discussion. For my purposes, the argument remains the same.