D&D General Gamer Stats From White Dwarf in the 80s

Phil on Twitter has posted a few interesting stats from White Dwarf back in the 80s. These include what games were being played in 1987, and a letter about male/female ratios in the same era. Short version: mainly D&D, very few women.

Phil on Twitter has posted a few interesting stats from White Dwarf back in the 80s. These include what games were being played in 1987, and a letter about male/female ratios in the same era. Short version: mainly D&D, very few women.

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"Fascinating stuff - what RPGs were being played in the UK in 1987 ... T&T higher than you might've thought. Indiana Jones too!"


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"I know people say women have always been in gaming, and that's true. But this single stat highlights why for many of us seeing a female gamer in the wild was unheard of until the Masquerade began to change things... Average readership of White Dwarf in 1987 was 16.08... Which means they'd now be 48"

 

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Zardnaar

Legend
Some discrimination though I think isn't active. No one's sitting there thinking hey I'ma gonna screw this person over.

If you're a ethnic minority especially an immigrant your language skills may be weak but you won't have the cultural back ground or social contacts.

For example if I went to China I wouldn't expect to be treated the same as my language skills are poor and I lack the social mores and contacts.

Big reason I stay in my own country if something goes wrong I have friends and family.

Things can definitely be cliques though. The RPG crowd at school were also chess club guys. The rugby guys were another group. Back then it was private for us no flgs.

Throw in product of it's time. I don't think anyone was actively going screw xyz but it was designed by middle class white guys via war gaming based heavily on European myth and history.

It's like Bollywood those productions are aimed at different audiences. Doesn't mean you keep doing it or it's a good idea now but it's not a systematic problem as it's mostly in the presentation.

Making a product that appeals to everyone is hard, unless it's food perhaps (chocolate, coke etc). More/different people playing is good though. Don't treat people like crap isn't a bad way to go. That and what comes around tends to go around.
 
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ad_hoc

(they/them)
Here's an anecdote to ponder.

I invited a non-gamer friend to our D&D group (largely made up of new to hobby gaming friends, thanks 5e). The first thing she said was 'are there any other women playing?'

It wasn't an attack on me or the friends I play games with. I found it to be an entirely reasonable inquiry and didn't take offense.

Think about why she would ask that question and why it is important to feeling safe and/or having an enjoyable game.

It will give you insight into the world women live in where they need to be careful even when gaming with friends.
 

Lylandra

Adventurer
There actually are a growing number in the undergraduate levels, but at the graduate and post-graduate levels, there are a ton of barriers that differentially hit women and minorities. Not that these fields are easy for anyone, but if the difficulty level for a single guy is, say, 1 at each hurdle, and the difficulty for a single woman or minority at any one of the hurdles is, say, 1.05, once you chain several hurdles together, you end up with the resulting final hurdle being quite substantial. For instance, if there are five independent hurdles (undergraduate, graduate, post-doc, assistant professor, associate professor) with that slightly higher difficulty, once you chain them (by multiplying) the resulting additional difficulty ends up being nearly 1.3. The reality is probably much worse for a few of the later ones, such as surviving to get tenure in an academic or senior research position, particularly given the choice many women face between having a scientific career and a family---remember that having a career in most research fields is "up or out" so once you're out, you're out for good. This is not to say it can't be done but when you factor in that some fields are known for being substantially discriminatory, it's not hard to see how this happens. Many prospective students look at a field and go "no way am I going through that."

A metaphor folks often use is the "leaky pipeline."

It is quite a bit different in Germany, and it totally depends on the field. Physics and computer science are worst off with numbers slowly creeping up ~3% (from 23% to 26%) over the last 5 years. Don't have exact numbers for applied engineering (there is a difference between more "theoretical" unis and more "practical" applied science unis), but chemistry and biology are pretty much even with ~40-50% women.

These numbers don't change much from BA to MA courses and the drops are generally from MA -> PhD -> PostDoc -> Professor. Which we usually attribute to far better and safer job conditions in tech companies, some hidden biases (despite unis trying hard to hire women) and a reluctance to apply for certain jobs.

But for me, the more prevalent problem is the societal connotation of "STEM" as "male field". Which leads to such finds like middle school girls having a lack of trust in their own knowledge and abilities despite their skills in, say, physics. Because that's (IMO) one of the reasons why many girls don't even start investing in STEM.

(Can only speak about studies and don't have too much anecdotal evidence as I never cared about gender stereotypes, or other people's opinions about me during my teen years. Might be one of the reasons why I turned out to be such a rather self-confident nerd)
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Huh. Wonder why Canada went with the American model. It's not like we left early. :D
My guess for part of it is that in the early pre-confederation days there just weren't enough kids in a lot of the small towns (i.e. anywhere not named Montreal, Quebec City, or Toronto) to support a school for each gender, so they all went to one school instead and thus mixed schools just became part of life.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
It is quite a bit different in Germany, and it totally depends on the field. Physics and computer science are worst off with numbers slowly creeping up ~3% (from 23% to 26%) over the last 5 years. Don't have exact numbers for applied engineering (there is a difference between more "theoretical" unis and more "practical" applied science unis), but chemistry and biology are pretty much even with ~40-50% women.

I didn't single out any fields but easily could have (e.g., economics, computer science) because I wanted to focus on the "leaky pipeline" idea, but that's more or less how things work in the USA, too.


These numbers don't change much from BA to MA courses and the drops are generally from MA -> PhD -> PostDoc -> Professor. Which we usually attribute to far better and safer job conditions in tech companies, some hidden biases (despite unis trying hard to hire women) and a reluctance to apply for certain jobs.

Right, that's more or less what I was saying. I kept the numbers really simple to make the point, but if you have them be more like 1.05, 1.05, 1.10, 1.15, 1.20, you end up with a ratio of 1.7 to 1, which more closely resembles the roll off that happens further on, and, in some fields, is even worse.


But for me, the more prevalent problem is the societal connotation of "STEM" as "male field". Which leads to such finds like middle school girls having a lack of trust in their own knowledge and abilities despite their skills in, say, physics. Because that's (IMO) one of the reasons why many girls don't even start investing in STEM.

That's certainly true and if you don't get people into the pipeline at the beginning, it's not good for the end. For example, if you change my numbers to 1.25, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, the end number is 1.5, which is a pretty big shift.

One thing that I think folks really need to recognize is the fact that there's a substantial delay for training time. If it takes 10 years to become a practicing scientist, changes made in year X won't even be reflected until year X+10. As one might suppose, policymakers just don't work on that kind of timeline.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Conversation that just happened with my girlfriend:

Me, showing her a commercial for Crossbows and Catapults boardgame I played as a kid with my brother, and saying I might get it to play with her 4 year old son

Her: “I remember seeing commercials for games like that, and having no interest at all”

While games like Wargames aren’t exclusive to males, it’s a reality that in broad generalizations, boys and girls are attracted to other things it seems. And not just because they were brainwashed that way growing up. Note, I’m not justifying toxic or exclusionary behavior by any means, but that we need to acknowledge trying to get equal representation for certain hobbies isn’t very likely.
 

Venley

First Post
I was born in 1970, started rpging in 1982. We knew what sexism was - I remember discussing whether the cover of White Dwarf 77 (1986) was sexist with my gaming group. The concept was widely available in the culture - on TV, in comics fanzines, and even in White Dwarf. That same issue contains an article by Chris Felton entitled Gaming for Heroine Addicts, which is essentially advice to male rpgers about how to be less sexist. I don't necessarily agree with its points - it makes 'sweeping statements' about women - but it's an interesting historical artefact, given this discussion.

From the article:
"Fantasy rolegames are often accused of sexism... This causes great problems for the hobby since it deters many women from participating. Yet women can enjoy gaming, so how do we make the games more attractive to them?...

The key to a game which women will enjoy is to cut the sexual imbalance out of the way it is played. This means cutting it out of the society the GM builds...

The next step is to stop powergaming. Powergaming is the art of designing your game to fulfill players' most simplistic fantasies. Few women are attracted by the 'let's rush in there and kill 'em all'
game; they prefer a more thoughtful approach where characterisation, and problem solving are more important than amassing experience points...

There is a third, more radical step - play characters of the opposite sex."



FYI, Chris Felton was one of my fellow founders of D&DSoc (now NoDDSoc) at Sheffield Uni. He was one of the males in my gaming group there. Venetia Lee (also published in White Dwarf on occasion) & I were among his influences in seeing how female gamers played and what we enjoyed.

I know c.7% of the UK are educated in private schools (mostly single sex) but you were being informed a little of what it was like outside the male-exclusive teenage areas. I know kids do not have many choices but we were trying to let you know that there were other ways of playing and other gamers beyond your circles.
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
Conversation that just happened with my girlfriend:

Me, showing her a commercial for Crossbows and Catapults boardgame I played as a kid with my brother, and saying I might get it to play with her 4 year old son

Her: “I remember seeing commercials for games like that, and having no interest at all”

While games like Wargames aren’t exclusive to males, it’s a reality that in broad generalizations, boys and girls are attracted to other things it seems. And not just because they were brainwashed that way growing up. Note, I’m not justifying toxic or exclusionary behavior by any means, but that we need to acknowledge trying to get equal representation for certain hobbies isn’t very likely.

And yet, aren't the numbers for 5e around 60:40 men to women?

Most of that imbalance is probably due to previous hobby gamers picking up 5e which I would assume would be 80+% men.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
And yet, aren't the numbers for 5e around 60:40 men to women?

Most of that imbalance is probably due to previous hobby gamers picking up 5e which I would assume would be 80+% men.

Where did those #s come from? I’d be surprised if D&D had a demographic split like that. That picture I posted above from a game night at my FLGS? Pretty typical. When Vampire tM came out, with a heavier role play vs combat emphasis, more women came to gaming. But I’m guessing it’s a still a very heavily male dominated hobby.

I didn’t make my post to imply we shouldn’t be more welcoming, or more encouraging to get women and other minorities into gaming. Quite the opposite. I think we should. But only that we need to acknowledge how certain hobbies one gender dominated over the others. For example, no matter how inclusive or welcoming a quilting club is, it’s going to be more female dominated. That’s what I was getting at with my conversation with my girlfriend. No matter how inclusive we are, a fantasy combat heavy rpg just wont be interesting to girls as much as boys. If I were to guess, it’s because a combat game is tied to aggression, which in turn is influenced by testosterone.

It’s kinds like a conversation I had the other day with a child psychologist (no reason for the conversation other than just hanging out having a general conversation). My girlfriends son just turned 4. He loves TMNT, superheroes, legos, and wearing dresses. We’ve always said, “boys and girls can wear whatever they want to be happy.” But he’s always expressed problems when wearing a dress in public, sometimes disagreeing and saying, “but boys wear pants”. The conversation with the CP was illuminating. We were handling it wrong.

That is, what we were telling him wasn’t jiving with his experiences, or what he was seeing. His brain isn’t developed enough to handle that nuance. So hearing something from a trusted adult that didn’t “appear” to be true from what he was seeing was confusing. A much better way to handle it is to say, “most boys wear pants, and most girls wear dresses. But if you want to wear a dress, that’s OK too and nothing is wrong or strange about it.” Acknowledge the norm as something that he sees all around him, but reassure how there is nothing wrong with he being an exception.

Same with gaming. I think that’s where we fall flat. There is this feeling that if you acknowledge how ttrpg are historically male dominated, that means it’s badwrong or you’re tacitly approving sexism. There are a lot of things that push away women and other minorities from our hobby as mentioned above (by myself as well). But there is nothing inherently wrong with admitting we are a male dominated hobby, and no matter how inclusive we get, we will probably always be a male dominated hobby. (But being inclusive is very much a goal we should be striving for regardless and toxicity should be fought against)
 
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Zardnaar

Legend
Where did those #s come from? I’d be surprised if D&D had a demographic split like that. That picture I posted above from a game night at my FLGS? Pretty typical. When Vampire tM came out, with a heavier role play vs combat emphasis, more women came to gaming. But I’m guessing it’s a still a very heavily male dominated hobby.

I didn’t make my post to imply we shouldn’t be more welcoming, or more encouraging to get women and other minorities into gaming. Quite the opposite. I think we should. But only that we need to acknowledge how certain hobbies one gender dominated over the others. For example, no matter how inclusive or welcoming a quilting club is, it’s going to be more female dominated. That’s what I was getting at with my conversation with my girlfriend. No matter how inclusive we are, a fantasy combat heavy rpg just wont be interesting to girls as much as boys. If I were to guess, it’s because a combat game is tied to aggression, which in turn is influenced by testosterone.

It’s kinds like a conversation I had the other day with a child psychologist (no reason for the conversation other than just hanging out having a general conversation). My girlfriends son just turned 4. He loves TMNT, superheroes, legos, and wearing dresses. We’ve always said, “boys and girls can wear whatever they want to be happy.” But he’s always expressed problems when wearing a dress in public, sometimes disagreeing and saying, “but boys wear pants”. The conversation with the CP was illuminating. We were handling it wrong.

That is, what we were telling him wasn’t jiving with his experiences, or what he was seeing. His brain isn’t developed enough to handle that nuance. So hearing something from a trusted adult that didn’t “appear” to be true from what he was seeing was confusing. A much better way to handle it is to say, “most boys wear pants, and most girls wear dresses. But if you want to wear a dress, that’s OK too and nothing is wrong or strange about it.” Acknowledge the norm as something that he sees all around him, but reassure how there is nothing wrong with he being an exception.

Same with gaming. I think that’s where we fall flat. There is this feeling that if you acknowledge how ttrpg are historically male dominated, that means it’s badwrong or you’re tacitly approving sexism. There are a lot of things that push away women and other minorities from our hobby as mentioned above (by myself as well). But there is nothing inherently wrong with admitting we are a male dominated hobby, and no matter how inclusive we get, we will probably always be a male dominated hobby. (But being inclusive is very much a goal we should be striving for regardless and toxicity should be fought against)

Alot don't go to gamestores, but use private Facebook channels. We have a local one of a hundred players and a national one. Gamestore owner is big on safe space and reasonable standard of hygiene.

IDK the ratio but more females there. At the flgs it's maybe 30/70 split. 25 years to met a female DM.
 
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