D&D 5E Saving Throws and non-proficiency

FrogReaver · Jul 12, 2019

Maybe I’m approaching this the wrong way. Perhaps saves should increase by spell level instead of proficiency bonus

Tony Vargas · Jul 12, 2019

Flamestrike said:
He hasnt gotten 'worse'. Against the same caster or effect

The /same caster/ is probably also 20th, now, and the same effect, even if it's a mere 1st-level spell, benefits from that DC scaling, so, yeah, /worse/.

(in keeping with the flavor of the class, the history of Fighters getting good saves, and to make them more attractive)

Thing is, Fighter's saves actually /did/ get better as they leveled back in the day. His target would go down as he, and whatever hypothetical foe he was facing, leveled, even if they happened to level at about the same rate, he'd get /relatively/ better, not tread water, not better only vs lower-level threats, but /better across the board/.
And, on top of that, there was an expectation of magic items, some of which, that were pretty common in the random tables, gave you save bonuses. 5e has no such expectation.

It's night & day, really.

FrogReaver said:
Maybe I’m approaching this the wrong way. Perhaps saves should increase by spell level instead of proficiency bonus

Like in 3e?

I mean, it's an OK idea, for the reasons it was an OK idea in 3e, limit the LFQW effects of accumulating all those lower level slots, and it shouldn't fail because save DCs are still held to BA in 5e - it'd fail because those slots still go to versatility and spells that don't need saves, but that's another issue.

(But, it is funny/ironic to revert a casting mechanism to 3.x, to make casting /less/ powerful in 5e.)

Flamestrike · Jul 12, 2019

Tony Vargas said:
The /same caster/ is probably also 20th, now, and the same effect, even if it's a mere 1st-level spell, benefits from that DC scaling, so, yeah, /worse/.

Who is this NPC that the PC has known since 1st level and why are they advancing in level?

But OK, presuming the guy that has gotten to god like powers alongside the Fighter decides to hit him with a Save spell, then unless he targets the dudes Con or Str saves, yes there is a difference.

But the difference isnt from the Fighter getting worse against the same effect; its from the Wizard getting better with his spells. It's not the same effect. Its now being cast with the skill of a 20th level Archmage instead of a 1st level apprentice who hasnt even specialized in a school yet.

It's no different to how the Fighter now hits the Wizard with his Greatsword a lot easier, while the Wizard is still just as sucky at hitting the Fighter with his Greatsword (no change to hit due to non-proficiency).

FrogReaver · Jul 12, 2019

Flamestrike said:
Who is this NPC that the PC has known since 1st level and why are they advancing in level?

But OK, presuming the guy that has gotten to god like powers alongside the Fighter decides to hit him with a Save spell, then unless he targets the dudes Con or Str saves, yes there is a difference.

But the difference isnt from the Fighter getting worse against the same effect; its from the Wizard getting better with his spells. It's not the same effect. Its now being cast with the skill of a 20th level Archmage instead of a 1st level apprentice who hasnt even specialized in a school yet.

It's no different to how the Fighter now hits the Wizard with his Greatsword a lot easier, while the Wizard is still just as sucky at hitting the Fighter with his Greatsword (no change to hit due to non-proficiency).

Well besides that a level 1 wizard will very likely die in a single great sword swing and the high level wizard can be hit for rounds and not die. Yea i guess that’s the same if you ignore the actual effects of what the hit does...

Tony Vargas · Jul 12, 2019

Flamestrike said:
Who is this NPC that the PC has known since 1st level and why are they advancing in level?

His arch-rival, the Lex Luthor to his Superman? Or, more apropos, the Darkseid to his Jimmy Olsen.

But, seriously, similar-CR monsters will force similar saves to a high-level caster, so except when he's slumming vs lower-CR save-forcing critters, he'll be notably worse off.

But OK, presuming the guy that has gotten to god like powers alongside the Fighter decides to hit him with a Save spell, then unless he targets the dudes Con or Str saves, yes there is a difference.

But the difference isnt from the Fighter getting worse against the same effect; its from the Wizard getting better with his spells.

Six of one, half-dozen of the other. Net, the fighter & wizard have advanced the same amount, and the fighter is a lot worse off than he was back at the start.

Just an ugly little punctuation mark on LFQW, really.

It's no different to how the Fighter now hits the Wizard with his Greatsword a lot easier, while the Wizard is still just as sucky at hitting the Fighter with his Greatsword (no change to hit due to non-proficiency).

The wizard has gotten better at hitting with his Quarterstaff, though, because, unlike saves, the person you're fighting doesn't get to dictate which weapon you use. Not /as much better/, since the probably hasn't bumped STR, but better, with leveling.

The real difference is that the fighter hits more often. Just like the real difference is that the wizard has 8 high-level spells that do everything from creating duplicates of himself to re-writing reality wholesale.

Flamestrike · Jul 12, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Well besides that a level 1 wizard will very likely die in a single great sword swing and the high level wizard can be hit for rounds and not die. Yea i guess that’s the same if you ignore the actual effects of what the hit does...

And your high level fighter who fails a save for half damage (taking full damage) would be turned to Ash at 1st level regardless of his save.

Now at 20th, a fireball doesn't really bother him that much, passed save or otherwise.

Seriously. I've literally ran games all the way to 20th+ epic boons. The problem you're arguing exists, doesnt.

(One caveat: I do use a natural 1 fails a save, and natural 20 passes house-rule because there should always be a chance).

Flamestrike · Jul 12, 2019

Tony Vargas said:
Net, the fighter & wizard have advanced the same amount, and the fighter is a lot worse off than he was back at the start.

Again; the Fighter is not worse. He's the same (even a bit better).

It's the Wizard that got better. Not the Fighter getting worse.

The wizard has gotten better at hitting with his Quarterstaff, though, because, unlike saves, the person you're fighting doesn't get to dictate which weapon you use. Not /as much better/, since the probably hasn't bumped STR, but better, with leveling.

The real difference is that the fighter hits more often. Just like the real difference is that the wizard has 8 high-level spells that do everything from creating duplicates of himself to re-writing reality wholesale.

Why do I get the feeling this is turning into a 'High level Wizards are broken' argument more than a 'Fighters need better saves' argument?

Tony Vargas · Jul 12, 2019

Flamestrike said:
Why do I get the feeling this is turning into a 'High level Wizards are broken' argument more than a 'Fighters need better saves' argument?

Just alluding to a fact. Whether LFQW means the fighter is broken, the wizard is broken, or the game is broken may be up for debate (and not the topic of this thread, really) but that it's a mathematical fact of D&D class designs since '74 (the odd blip like Bo9S notwithstanding) is not. It's just a D&D Thang.

It /also/ used to be a D&D Thang that all 6 saves scaled dramatically with level.

WaterRabbit · Jul 12, 2019

Flamestrike said:
Why do I get the feeling this is turning into a 'High level Wizards are broken' argument more than a 'Fighters need better saves' argument?

I think you are correct here. I find it especially laughable that people are referring to earlier editions when wizards just curb-stomped everything at high levels. This edition in particular has taken the dominance of wizards at high level while doing very little to help them at low level where they have always been weak in contrast to the rest of the classes.

This whole give everyone better saves also seems to keep ignoring the fact this is a team game. If the players bring about a sub-optimal party, then the dm adjusts the game to still keep it fun by not bringing monsters against them that hammer their weaknesses.

Making everyone better at all saves reduces the class features of the Monk, so what does the monk get in the game to compensate now that one of his uniques has been watered-down?

I wholeheartedly agree with you that this is a white-room problem that has little to no concerns at the table.

5ekyu · Jul 12, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Well besides that a level 1 wizard will very likely die in a single great sword swing and the high level wizard can be hit for rounds and not die. Yea i guess that’s the same if you ignore the actual effects of what the hit does...

Really?

20th level wizard with 8 con and no investment in hp has on average what - using fixed HP option 5+19x3 or 62 hp. What's the single turn output of say a 20th level battle master or EK or Elven Archer with maxed stats and expected gear?

As you observe a one turn assault from a fighter with main weapons has decent chance to ko wizard at 1st vs first. But at with vs a wizard who made just as many HP crippling choices as you put forth for your fighter wisdom saves, are the results that much different?

Action surge at 20th is what 8 attacks? 2d6+5 reroll 1-2s. Then add in superiority dice or other class/sub-class outputs?

How many rounds to hit 62?

But as others have said, as well as the designers, D&D is built as z team gsme, not a solo game, and there tends to be more vo- op ways to raise saves than DCs readily available through class features.

Maybe it's not the game you want, sure. Maybe you want solo death match SSM Arena 5e, sure.

But that's more "change" than "fix".