D&D 5E Saving Throws and non-proficiency

Tony Vargas said:

Just alluding to a fact. Whether LFQW means the fighter is broken, the wizard is broken, or the game is broken may be up for debate (and not the topic of this thread, really) but that it's a mathematical fact of D&D class designs since '74 (the odd blip like Bo9S notwithstanding) is not. It's just a D&D Thang.

It /also/ used to be a D&D Thang that all 6 saves scaled dramatically with level.

Click to expand...

Again, I can tell you it's really not an issue.

In my high level party the Swashbuckler 14 + BM Fighter 6 had Resilient [Wis] as a feat (and would have had Slippery Mind if he took one less level of Fighter) giving him Dex (+14), Int (+7), and Wis (+8) saves. As for other saves he had a high Charisma (+4) and Con (+6) as well (bonuses include his cloak).

He also had Evasion and a few immunities (Poison from a periapt).

He was often Buffed in Saves by the Dwarven Cleric 14/ Paladin 6 (proving +5 to saves when he was near her, or via her Bless) and from the Lore Bard in the party (+1d12 to a clutch save). He also occasionally had inspiration. He also had the Lucky feat.

Any save he missed, would be dispelled or negated with Dispel magic, restoration, calm emotions or similar (we had a Mood Druid 18/ Paladin 2 and FeyTome Warlock 20 in addition to the Cleric/ Paladin, Lore Bard 20 and Swash/ Fighter).

Most casters took Resilient Con for saves. The Paladin had insane saves (particularly with Bless active) and Resilient Con - her only 'bad' saves were Dex which was only +3 (Dex 6, but +5 Charisma) and Int (+5).

She wore a ring of evasion at later levels to counter the Dex saves after a few Disintegrates got tossed her way.

I get the Swashbuckler Fighter wasnt a straight 'Fighter' by any means, but you cant tell me that he didnt get better at saves (along with the rest of the party) along the way.

The only save he sucked at was Strength (+0, including his cloak).

When you look at most classes (and subclasses); they feature a number of immunities, save buffs and defensive buffs to deal with stuff.

Single classed Fighter doesnt have that much (aside from 2 extra ASI for say... Lucky and Resilient - or simple stat buffs and Indomitable) as opposed to (say) a Monk (all saves, re-rolls and a ton of immunities) but on the flip side the Fighter deals considerably more damage than a Monk.

Strengths and weaknesses in each class, encouraging teamwork and a diverse party to survive.

It's a feature, not a bug.

Flamestrike said:

Again; the Fighter is not worse. He's the same (even a bit better).

It's the Wizard that got better. Not the Fighter getting worse.



Why do I get the feeling this is turning into a 'High level Wizards are broken' argument more than a 'Fighters need better saves' argument?

Click to expand...

Yeah another round of the old saw without really even imaginative packaging while fighters remain one of or the most played classes.

5ekyu said:

Really?

20th level wizard with 8 con and no investment in hp has on average what - using fixed HP option 5+19x3 or 62 hp. What's the single turn output of say a 20th level battle master or EK or Elven Archer with maxed stats and expected gear?

Click to expand...

What 20th-level Wizard is going to have an 8 CON when for most Wizards CON is either 2nd or 3rd in importance?

If you're curious, that High level party would also run around with Heroes feast active, Death wards, Mind Blanks, the mental communication ritual spell, and water breathing active, plus an upcast Aid spell (I think it was).

Both the Lore Bard AND the Warlock had counterspell. They could counterspell my enemy spellcasters couterspells even if someone else trued to counter that spell!

The Druid was immune to a ton of effects being effectively in Elemental form all the darn time, and most PCs came with Charm immunity or advantage to saves vs the Charmed condition, immunity to Fear, and other random resistances and immunities from magic items and Epic boons.

Anything that did get through all of that, then got Dispelled or Calm Emotions or Restoration-ed pretty quick, and rarely would the effect last more than a round or two before they made the follow up save.

I could literally toss out DC 27 saves at the BBEG fight as legendary actions (multiple times per round) from a CR 30 Kyuss (himself immune to spells of 6th level or lower) and it didnt break a thing with many of the saves made (or otherwise immune to the effects).

5ekyu said:

Really?

20th level wizard with 8 con and no investment in hp has on average what - using fixed HP option 5+19x3 or 62 hp. What's the single turn output of say a 20th level battle master or EK or Elven Archer with maxed stats and expected gear?

Click to expand...

At least create a reasonable character. I mean have you even seen a 5e wizard played with 8 con?

Flamestrike said:

Again; the Fighter is not worse. He's the same (even a bit better).

It's the Wizard that got better. Not the Fighter getting worse.

Click to expand...

You apparently don't understand comparing by relation. A level 1 fighter can withstand a level 1 wizards 1st level spells much easier than a level 20 fighter can withstand a level 20 wizards first level spells.

Why do I get the feeling this is turning into a 'High level Wizards are broken' argument more than a 'Fighters need better saves' argument?

Click to expand...

That's a weird thing to say. No one has complained wizards are broken. I have complained that fighter's, even in a featless game, should be able to make saves more often than on a 15+.

The wizard example simply illustrates that.

Flamestrike said:

If you're curious, that High level party would also run around with Heroes feast active, Death wards, Mind Blanks, the mental communication ritual spell, and water breathing active, plus an upcast Aid spell (I think it was).

Both the Lore Bard AND the Warlock had counterspell. They could counterspell my enemy spellcasters couterspells even if someone else trued to counter that spell!

The Druid was immune to a ton of effects being effectively in Elemental form all the darn time, and most PCs came with Charm immunity or advantage to saves vs the Charmed condition, immunity to Fear, and other random resistances and immunities from magic items and Epic boons.

Anything that did get through all of that, then got Dispelled or Calm Emotions or Restoration-ed pretty quick, and rarely would the effect last more than a round or two before they made the follow up save.

I could literally toss out DC 27 saves at the BBEG fight as legendary actions (multiple times per round) from a CR 30 Kyuss (himself immune to spells of 6th level or lower) and it didnt break a thing with many of the saves made (or otherwise immune to the effects).

Click to expand...

That wizards and paladins and clerics and bards can protect the fighters from save or suck spells isn't a good argument that fighters should have the abysmal saves they do.

Flamestrike said:

Again, I can tell you it's really not an issue.

In my high level party the Swashbuckler 14 + BM Fighter 6 had Resilient [Wis] as a feat (and would have had Slippery Mind if he took one less level of Fighter) giving him Dex (+14), Int (+7), and Wis (+8) saves. As for other saves he had a high Charisma (+4) and Con (+6) as well (bonuses include his cloak).

He also had Evasion and a few immunities (Poison from a periapt).

He was often Buffed in Saves by the Dwarven Cleric 14/ Paladin 6 (proving +5 to saves when he was near her, or via her Bless) and from the Lore Bard in the party (+1d12 to a clutch save). He also occasionally had inspiration. He also had the Lucky feat.

Any save he missed, would be dispelled or negated with Dispel magic, restoration, calm emotions or similar (we had a Mood Druid 18/ Paladin 2 and FeyTome Warlock 20 in addition to the Cleric/ Paladin, Lore Bard 20 and Swash/ Fighter).

Most casters took Resilient Con for saves. The Paladin had insane saves (particularly with Bless active) and Resilient Con - her only 'bad' saves were Dex which was only +3 (Dex 6, but +5 Charisma) and Int (+5).

She wore a ring of evasion at later levels to counter the Dex saves after a few Disintegrates got tossed her way.

I get the Swashbuckler Fighter wasnt a straight 'Fighter' by any means, but you cant tell me that he didnt get better at saves (along with the rest of the party) along the way.

The only save he sucked at was Strength (+0, including his cloak).

When you look at most classes (and subclasses); they feature a number of immunities, save buffs and defensive buffs to deal with stuff.

Single classed Fighter doesnt have that much (aside from 2 extra ASI for say... Lucky and Resilient - or simple stat buffs and Indomitable) as opposed to (say) a Monk (all saves, re-rolls and a ton of immunities) but on the flip side the Fighter deals considerably more damage than a Monk.

Strengths and weaknesses in each class, encouraging teamwork and a diverse party to survive.

It's a feature, not a bug.

Click to expand...

1. you are playing in a feat based game and took feats to boost saves
2. your allies are constantly boosting your saves
3. you multiclassed in such a way that you got abilities that helped mitigate many of the effects of bad wisdom saves


None of those elements are guaranteed in any game. So why would fighters suck at saving throws?

FrogReaver said:

That wizards and paladins and clerics and bards can protect the fighters from save or suck spells isn't a good argument that fighters should have the abysmal saves they do.

Click to expand...

No, the argument is they get boosts elsewhere to compensate for poor saves.

More feats or ASI if you dont use feats, and a huge amount of DPR.

Compare them to a Monk, that gets all saves (plus a re-roll) and a ton of immunities and maneuverability.

Fighters deal considerably more damage than Monks in every game I have ever seen barring 1-2 level when the Fighter has the better defences most often.

It's a trade off.

FrogReaver said:

You apparently don't understand comparing by relation. A level 1 fighter can withstand a level 1 wizards 1st level spells much easier than a level 20 fighter can withstand a level 20 wizards first level spells.

Click to expand...

So it's not the same effect any more than a 1st level Rogues sneak attack is the same thing as a 20th level rogues sneak attack!

That's a weird thing to say. No one has complained wizards are broken. I have complained that fighter's, even in a featless game, should be able to make saves more often than on a 15+.

Click to expand...

Drop their damage per round, and feel free to give them immunities and save boosts. You're probably left with a Monk if you go far enough.

FrogReaver said:

1. you are playing in a feat based game and took feats to boost saves

Click to expand...

Most did. The Casters took Resilient Con, the Fighter/Rogue Resilient Wisdom (and Lucky). The Druid didnt bother and went with Warcaster instead.

Still that only adds +1 save (at the cost of an ASI). Most save buffs came from Bless, the Paladin, and the Lore Bard.

2. your allies are constantly boosting your saves
3. you multiclassed in such a way that you got abilities that helped mitigate many of the effects of bad wisdom saves

Click to expand...

Weird that hey? It's almost as if DnD is a collaborative, teamwork orientated game, featuring a party with diverse skills and...

Oh wait!

Seriously though mate, Wizards Warlocks and Sorcerers can dispell or counter incoming magical attacks (or remove them once they hit the party via other means), or mind blank the party or ehatever. Clerics have bless and protection from good and evil and heroes feast and warding bond and a ton of other save buffs or immunity granting spells, and status effect ending spells (dispel, restoration, remove curse etc). Ditto Bards (who can also toss out Bardic inspiration as a bonus action X times per short rest from 5th. Paladins are surrounded by an aura that buffs nearby PCs with immunities and save boosts, and can also strip negative status effects with LoH and spells.

I guess you might find yourself in a party of all Fighters, without any friendly Paladins, Clerics, Casters, or Bards, in a featless game where the DM hits you with a lot of Wisdom, Int and Charisma based saves all the time.

In every other situation, it literally doesnt matter.

None of those elements are guaranteed in any game.

Click to expand...

Feats, and especially teamwork are not outliers in any game. If you're not at least getting the latter at your table, find a new table. You have bigger problems than fighters having 4 poor saves.

And if you still have mechanical issues with Fighters and Saves for some reason (you're playing a party of only Fighters, and they get hit with Wisdom saves all the time), let them (and only them) take Resilient, Lucky or Both, or allow them to swap an ASI

I've figured out the problem, you only consider games with feats whereas I enjoy games without feats.

Flamestrike said:

No, the argument is they get boosts elsewhere to compensate for poor saves.

More feats or ASI if you dont use feats, and a huge amount of DPR.

Compare them to a Monk, that gets all saves (plus a re-roll) and a ton of immunities and maneuverability.

Click to expand...

Monks are one of the best single target controllers for most of the game and get pretty good DPR as well. Thus they already compete with and due to their potent offensive ability combination they likely outdo the fighter whose sole contribution is DPR.

Fighters deal considerably more damage than Monks in every game I have ever seen barring 1-2 level when the Fighter has the better defences most often.

Click to expand...

They are only slightly ahead in DPR in featless games.

So it's not the same effect any more than a 1st level Rogues sneak attack is the same thing as a 20th level rogues sneak attack!

Click to expand...

If you look at the damage numbers of course not. If you look at how everythings hp scales as it levels, it's arguable that the rogues sneak attack actually gets weaker as the game goes on.

Drop their damage per round, and feel free to give them immunities and save boosts. You're probably left with a Monk if you go far enough.

Click to expand...

Then Monks are flat out better than them as they get the damage and control aspects.

Most did. The Casters took Resilient Con, the Fighter/Rogue Resilient Wisdom (and Lucky). The Druid didnt bother and went with Warcaster instead.

Click to expand...

I enjoy playing with no feats.

Still that only adds +1 save (at the cost of an ASI). Most save buffs came from Bless, the Paladin, and the Lore Bard.

Click to expand...

Which are not guaranteed classes, abilities or ability uses from any of those

I guess you might find yourself in a party of all Fighters, without any friendly Paladins, Clerics, Casters, or Bards, in a featless game where the DM hits you with a lot of Wisdom, Int and Charisma based saves all the time.

Click to expand...

All it takes is not being in a party with a bard/cleric or paladin. Fighter/Rogue/Wizard/Druid and your out of luck on saves.