D&D 5E Why don't everything scale by proficiency bonus?

Azzy · Jul 11, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Maybe or maybe your telling me he didn't learn enough about his own religion in 20 years to even get a +1 bonus...

If he didn't take proficiency in it at some point during that 20 years, why would he learn more? Not like he put any actual effort into it.

jgsugden · Jul 11, 2019

Bob the cleric DOES learn more about religion. He just doesn't learn more about religion trivia. He is not a religion scholar. He just worries about the stuff that is right in front of him, not the stuff that fills those countless books.

For example, Bob goes on an adventure at 2nd level and encounters a strange idol. He rolls a religion check and gets a result of 8 - meaning that he does not recognize it. They then meet the monster cleric that worships at that idol and it calls down spells in the name of its God, Umberlee. Bob now realizes that idol was for Umberlee. Maybe he notes it in a notebook.

5 levels later, Bob encounters the symbols on that idol again. He knows what they mean, now. No roll necessary.

Bob learns from his practical experiences... he just hasn't picked up book smarts about religion.

Horwath · Jul 11, 2019

I see no reason to for thing to get better if you didn't practice it. Or in game mechanics; spent some character resources to improve it.

But, my only problem with 5E is that there is only one way of customizing your character after lvl1, and that is ASI.

And everything is molded into it; Ability boosts, skill training, tool training, bonus languages, feats.
And people being people, will pick only the best that there is from limited amount or resources they have. And that is 90% primary ability to 20, one or two (over)powerful feats and maybe boost secondary stat.

ASI should be breaked down in: Bonus feats, bonus skills, bonus tools/languages, ability boosts

Sacrosanct · Jul 11, 2019

Horwath said:
I see no reason to for thing to get better if you didn't practice it. Or in game mechanics; spent some character resources to improve it.

But, my only problem with 5E is that there is only one way of customizing your character after lvl1, and that is ASI.

And everything is molded into it; Ability boosts, skill training, tool training, bonus languages, feats.
And people being people, will pick only the best that there is from limited amount or resources they have. And that is 90% primary ability to 20, one or two (over)powerful feats and maybe boost secondary stat.

ASI should be breaked down in: Bonus feats, bonus skills, bonus tools/languages, ability boosts

There are three ways though: ASI to any ability score, feat, and multiclassing. It’s late, I may be forgetting others.

And while yes, most people use an ASI to their primary stat, that’s their choice to do so. The game gives you an option of being better at a pool of skills by applying ASI to any stat. If you dont apply it that way, well, that’s your choice then, but Bob the fighter CAN get better at lore or perception by putting his ASI into the appropriate stat.

Horwath · Jul 11, 2019

Sacrosanct said:
There are three ways though: ASI to any ability score, feat, and multiclassing. It’s late, I may be forgetting others.

And while yes, most people use an ASI to their primary stat, that’s their choice to do so. The game gives you an option of being better at a pool of skills by applying ASI to any stat. If you dont apply it that way, well, that’s your choice then, but Bob the fighter CAN get better at lore or perception by putting his ASI into the appropriate stat.

ofc, it is their choice...but, if +2 to primary ability is better in 9/10 situations, then there is no reason to have other options.

That is why I am for separate resource pool for feats, skills, tools/languages, ASIs and general pool for anything.

DND_Reborn · Jul 11, 2019

Sacrosanct said:
There are three ways though: ASI to any ability score, feat, and multiclassing. It’s late, I may be forgetting others.

And while yes, most people use an ASI to their primary stat, that’s their choice to do so. The game gives you an option of being better at a pool of skills by applying ASI to any stat. If you dont apply it that way, well, that’s your choice then, but Bob the fighter CAN get better at lore or perception by putting his ASI into the appropriate stat.

Horwath said:
ofc, it is their choice...but, if +2 to primary ability is better in 9/10 situations, then there is no reason to have other options.

That is why I am for separate resource pool for feats, skills, tools/languages, ASIs and general pool for anything.

It is always the player's choice. You can max out your strengths or shore up your weaknesses. As a player, I am always happy to shore up any weaknesses my characters have. In 5E I am very happy with my primary stats at 16. It isn't max, obviously, but it is "good enough" that my character can overcome the challenges she faces.

Does she have proficiency in deception? intimidation? Nope. Nope. What about Charisma saves? No, again. So if I find applying my ASI to Charisma (if it is even, like a 10) is a good thing to gain a +1 to saves and skills she wants to be better at. Or if it is odd, I take Resilient and apply it to Charisma, not only gaining a +1 to those skills she is not proficient in but also she gains proficiency in that save, which is great.

Would boosting her Intelligence to 18 be better? Probably since she is a Wizard primarily, but then she never improves in things were she is vulnerable. It all boils down to your philosophy.

Finally, as to the OP, let's take something more real to life for me, personally, and that's Athletics. When I was younger, I did a lot of sports and would probably have had a STR of 12 or 14 for a +1 or +2 mod. Despite being active in sports, would I have had proficiency in it in general? Maybe, but there were a lot of others who were MUCH better than I was so I would be inclined to think I didn't have proficiency if they did, you know?

Well, now I am older and I've learned some new sports over the years, sure, but am I any better at the stuff I used to do? Nope. Why? Because I haven't applied myself to it and practiced over the last 20-25 years. If anything, I am sure my Strength HAS gone down and now would like be only a 10 or maybe a 12, and since I haven't kept up with those sports, I am not even as good as I once was.

If you don't have a system for skills degrading, I don't think it makes sense to have a general system to improve them "overall". At best, I think a skill swapping system makes more sense. Perhaps with each ASI you can swap proficiency from one skill you do know to one skill you don't know. Maybe after a few levels you realize proficiency in Animal Handling hasn't been useful for your Fighter, and wish you had perception? Well, swap them out. This way, you aren't spending resources to learn a new skill or waste an ASI, etc. but it allows you to focus the resources you already have into where you want them.

It would definitely help IMO because I've seen numerous times where players regret skill choices and wish they had others as their characters grow and change.

Maxperson · Jul 11, 2019

jgsugden said:
I'm 45 years old. I am no better today than I was at 18 at many, many things. For example, I am not better at weaving, golf, archery, swimming, tumbling, playing the piano, etc... I could go on for 60 pages listing all of the things I don't do any better than I did 27 years ago.

Because you're still 1st level.

On on even a less serious note, I'm better today at dodging fireballs and lightning bolts than I was 27 years ago.

Maxperson · Jul 11, 2019

Garthanos said:
And my warrior Joe wonder how he avoided making Dex and Wis saves and Perception checks he must be pretty clever

Joe is a barbarian. Haven't you ever read Chalker?

Maxperson · Jul 11, 2019

Garthanos said:
You would have thought he would pick up something channelling divine power but I think its like real life ... zealots only know about their own religion and there isnt really much to know. Its heathens that study lots of religions.

I've known a number of Rabbis and Preachers who not only studied other religions, but enjoyed meeting with leaders of other religions and engaging them in discussions. It's really interesting to hear them talk about it.