Mearls On D&D's Design Premises/Goals

First of all, thanks Morrus for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes. That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to...

First of all, thanks [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes.

That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to fans of the other, but those differences do matter. There are ways in which I like the prescriptive elements of 3.x era games (I like set skill difficulty lists, for example) but I tend to run by the seat of my pants and the effects of my beer, so a fast and loose and forgiving version like 5E really enables me running a game the way I like to.
 

Fallstorm

First Post
I started D&D in 2E and played every edition since. 4 is my favorite but I like 5E two and I currently am playing in my second 5E campaign. I have DMed but mostly I have been a player. While I like 5E I (along with most of my group) are rather disappointed at the pace of rules production released in 5E. Mike Mearls mentioned that thereis a ton of new players and someone in this over twenty page thread made a statement saying that since 5E is doing so well it must mean that players in general don’t favor heavy rules customization. I take issue with that belief.

I take issue with it because we really don’t fully know what Hasbro is counting as sales of D&D. Mike Mearls has said before that they don’t have to put out as many splat books because they can release games like Lords of Waterdeep, etcetera as income generators since the Hasbro merger. I am wondering if things like the numerous board games and additional niche products (Dice sets), etcetera are what is making a more significant portion D&D 5E sales now, whereas the RPG books like splat books were the main revenue generator in previous editions? I don’t know if there are any hard numbers on this (perhaps [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] has some insight) but I would feel secure betting that besides the three core books (DMG, PHB, and MM) the biggest book sales of D&D 5E are probably the books that offer actual rules and option expansions like Xanathar’s Guide to Everything and Mordenkainen’s Guide, and also the SCAG (as the first book to really offer PC expansions despite how skimpy).

I do know that there are a number of third party options but many people don’t use those because they like to use official products for a variety of reasons: 1) It creates consistency from campaign to campaign and between games 2) people may feel that official splat material has been better play tested, etc. What I think is that is that Mike Mearl’s statement is coming from two places. 1) His own personal philosophy and not that of ALL the designers because I know Jeremy Crawford had written much more crunch to the game that was not included and 2) it was pragmatic political statement. What I mean in regards to the latter is that WOTC only has a handful of game designers compared to the 3E and even early 4E days. It takes a lot to write a book especially a rulebook and with such a small team the pace of production is inevitably going to be impacted. Now, granted I think they can go a little faster (no psionic expansion yet, slow updates on pre-existing game worlds and so forth) but the fact is unless they work around the clock 24/7 they can only do so much—designers have to eat and sleep too.

All that being said again I don’t HATE 5E. Also, I think people being somewhat hyperbolic when they talk about the game being "DM Facing". In 90% of my games I am a player. In 5E my character feels very heroic andempowered. In fact, if the game is played correctly where people the DM is doing level appropriate encounters, PCs are working together, I feel like more of an action hero than I did in 3E (although not as much as in 4E) but still I don’t feel cheated in any way. Likewise while I absolutely crave more rules I do think that there is a sufficient level of crunch in the game between (PHB,Xanathar’s, SCAG, and Mordenkainen’s) there are number of classes, subclasses,races, backgrounds, feats, and even optional rules like downtime activity to play with an interesting number of combinations.

Where I think WOTC (Hasbro) maybe harming themselves is that they are losing money on not producing splat material. I am by no means a rich person and what money I have I work hard for. That being said even when D&D is producing volumes of splat materialparticularly in the 2E and 3E days it is a fact that D&D is a VERY economical hobby compared to most other hobbies. Even if 5E came out with a $50 dollar rulebook every month that is PEANUTS compared to golf, poker, attending a sporting event even nosebleed seats, or simply going to a night club and having a few drinks. D&D is still cheaper. I don’t’ play video games but from what I have seen D&D would still not equal the money most avid video gamers spend on their hobby. None of these things I do so I am okay spending my recreation money that I work hard for on a fairly cheap hobby that I enjoy.

The problem is with 5E they give very little to spend money on. With 4E and 3.5 even the DM geared material had stuff in it like a bunch of feats,prestige classes/paragon paths/epic destinies geared towards players so I (and my friends) would purchase those books every month. Assuming they came out with just one $40 dollar book a month that is $480 off one person (and I know I spent more than that because 3.5 was sometimes producing more than one splat amonth). On 5E I have spent probablyabout $400 (the total of all my books combined including core) since 2014 when it was released. I don't buy the adventure books and nor does my group. I don't buy them because I don't DM that often and my current DM write most of their own adventures. So despite what Mearls said I think they are losing opportunities by ignoring CharOps people.

The one area where I do think 5E should improve and that they can control but evidently is against design philosophy is in rules clarity. Again, I think 5E is okay from a tactical and combat perspective (I would like to see more tactical options added but I digress) and my character feels powerful enough. It is outside of combat with using abilities and rules that is the issue. I don’t feel that things like stealth and perception should be a DM-May-I at every step procedure. I think DMs should have power. I have DMed.

That being said for everyone that talks about players that can abuse the system (note: I don’t consider powergaming abuse) there are equally as bad DMs that without constraints make the game not fun for their players and campaigns fall apart because of it. Power playing is not an issue; people being disruptive and taking away the enjoyment of others is the issue. When a group has a disruptive player (and by the way I have encountered "deep" role-players whose brand of amateur thespianism disrupted more meet-ups and games than power players I have encountered) be it a powergamer, deep role-player, or whatever the group can just expel that person and move on. When the group has a problematic or overbearing GM that particularly game/campaign is done. So having clarity of procedures in rules does not take away a DM's authority. What it does is clarify applications so everyone knows where they stand and what the baseline says you can or can't do. The GM is still free to change it as she or he sees fit but at least a precedent will have been established.
 
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Al'Kelhar

Adventurer
Look, if there's one thing I know for sure, it's that back in the day, if your elf didn't have a bagel to feed the carrion crawler under the drawbridge of the ruined castle, it was back to rolling 3d6 six times in order. Which is why 5E is the best system. Yet. QED.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar
 


5ekyu

Hero
So your saying the human fighter is not the most played class because the same logic still applies... The did call out that one metric for tracking that is that they check if HP is manipulated not a max but in terms of damage and healing back to full. That said while I have made many characters but I have never sat around for hours damaging and undamaging my unused characters for no reason. Are you going to tell me you damage, heal, and level your unused characters? … That would seem a bit odd to me. So while I will agree the metrics are not 100% I think they are way more accurate than your giving them credit for unless their is large group of people who are GMing games where they are their only player... which I have never heard of.[/FONT][/COLOR]



That's not necessarily a conflict first of all as The Old One patron does not require that your patron recognize your existence, you could be a pact breaker in the case that you made a deal with the devil but then decided to betray them when you came to your right mind (which is where death locks come from if they kill you for it), and the assumption here is that no other character including Clerics who are REQUIRED to obey their deity or paladins who have to play with their oaths or become and oath breaker would be less popular for the same reason. I am playing a warlock, have a cleric, and a paladin in my group. We have "baggage" with all three but we don't mind it... we call it back story and it hooks each character into the world...In fact the classes without hooks... generally have hooks added to them one way or another. This has never been a problem in any game we have ever played. That in mind, your placing a personal play style choice that conflicts with your GM as if all players and GMs are the same and creates this intrinsic problem.... when that is not the case. From the same type of argument I could say "All fighter characters are abandoned because players realize the just wanted to play a strategic fighting game but then GMs made them roll play any way instead of being the stoic warrior, so they all quite and decide to play something else." … but that would be silly since I has no basis in a metric or reality its just a personal view.
I am not saying anything about fighter use... I am saying i do not see how dnd beyond data can tell them "played" vs "created as practice" based on how i have seen most every chargen tool used ever and how i have seen beyond used as well.

There is no switch or flag there for playing vs fooling around.

As for old ones patron not knoeing you ecist that does not preclude pact bargain and such, nor does any gm have to allow that patron in their games.

One suggestion for such a pact was it might be allowed but when the old one got hungry, angry, horny, sad - those emotions carried over to the warlock as "how our communication works". Warlock could act or not on it, with similar consequence to other patron requests.

As noted in Warlock, player and gm need to work these things out.

As noted, some players mind baggage, others like it. I love it myself. Bot have seen plenty of thr other too.

But when making conclusions on data, if one doesnt tske into acvount thre nature of the data, you may be worse off than using no dats or no conclusions and i do not see tools in dnd beyond to diffetentiate playing vs practicing.

I have quite a few warlock multiclass "try this" on my account. Every player using my csmpsign account has as many or more practice chars as played ones.

Edit
On the health manip, i have manipulate the heslth online, for practice cases, even the THP, even spell slots etc as part of various practices. Even the rests stuff practiced.

It has iirc not been used by,me in game or by any player using,my gm/campaign account. We use pen and paper in play.

So actually, if that was the metric they used, they **only** got info on practice chars from our group.

That adds confidence in their conclusion, let me tell you.
 
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5ekyu

Hero
You are misapplying the ability check rule for ties. The rule for ties is for contests ONLY and initiative is not a ability contest. There is no winner and loser like with opposed checks, so that rule does not apply. The general rule for tied initiative between DM and players is that the DM decides.............just like if there was no rule.
What is the difference between "who goes first me or you" as a dex contest between multiple people and an initiative check?

The higher goes first, the other after, just rolled all at once.

You are splitying haors to construe an absence.
 

5ekyu

Hero
Then they are a threat and PCs who notice people can't be surprised, by RAW.



No offense, but I wouldn't want to play in a game where I'm forced to be clueless next to a dragon just so that it can surprise me. Not even Forest Gump would be caught off guard by a dragon.



The game does care. It limits you to exactly two forms of communication. Verbal(utterances) and gestures.



Happens all the time in the real world does it? I can't think of being in or hearing about enough conversations regarding telepathy that I would describe it as "normal" and "broadly accepted" to use terms for spoken communication to describe it. I really doubt enough people have had that conversation to qualify as either normal or broadly accepted.

Books that I've read sometimes make it images, or they just understand each other without words, or they hear, but not really hear, words in their head.



The common usage for utterance is verbal only. That's the common usage, which you say is literally always correct. It's not just uncommon, it's bloody rare for people to even be discussing telepathy at all, let alone using the word utterance when doing it.



Not according to Jeremy Crawford who puts in the RAW interpretation of rules into the Sage Advice, and then includes the RAI interpretation as something separate.



This is flat out wrong. A contest is when you have two ability checks in direct opposition to one another, such as when one person is trying open a door, and the other trying to close it.

A "contest" like a javelin toss might use ability checks to see how far you throw the javelin, but that does not qualify as a contest as written in the PHB. Per RAW there are only two times you have a contest.

"Sometimes one character’s or monster’s efforts are directly opposed to another’s. This can occur when both of them are trying to do the same thing and only one can succeed, such as attempting to snatch up a magic ring that has fallen on the floor. This situation also applies when one of them is trying to prevent the other one from accomplishing a goal—for example, when a monster tries to force open a door that an adventurer is holding closed. In situations like these, the outcome is determined by a special form of ability check, called a contest."

When you roll initiative, you are not engaging in an act in which only one can succeed, nor are you trying to prevent anyone else from accomplishing initiative. There is no contest as defined by RAW.
"i try to act first, before the others"

But really, all of this is a nonsensical effort to argue one side or the other over what something would be if the rule we all agree exists did not exist.

It exists, so its not, just like the whole " it's a rule that is a non-rule" bugaboo.

You want to see it as a non-rule rule - fantastic - and I will call it a rule that is a flagazxi with whipped cream and a cherry and we will both see that rule as printed and exists in the book/online/pdf.
 
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Li Shenron

Legend
For example - When asked about a regret Mearls has pointed to the design of the fighter, specifically the subclasses. The Champion and Battlemaster have no identity, they're just bundles of mechanics.

I don't think it's WotC's fault. I think this is what the gamers base wanted during the playtest, because for a while the battlemaster's mechanics were common to all fighters.
 

Eric V

Hero
I don't think it's WotC's fault. I think this is what the gamers base wanted during the playtest, because for a while the battlemaster's mechanics were common to all fighters.

Well...it's still their decision, right? If they make the decision to publish what was most popular and not what they, as designers, would have thought was the best game design, they still own that decision, I would think.
 

pemerton

Legend
That doesn't really answer my question. Especially since you also play games, such as D&D, that are built around the traditional style of game play, yet you have no issue tossing that aside to run your style of game. Why expect players to be proactive with goals and desires with things other than treasure, but not treasure?
I don't think I fully get your question.

If a player has a PC goal like I'll free my loved one from the evil duke's dungeons, then I'd expect that to drive play to some reasonable extent. And likewise if a player has a PC goal like I will become the richest baron in all the land. But I would expect that character to drive a quite different game from typical D&D, in which the gathering of the treasure is largely an afterthought to the action, yet is treated as a major win condition. (By "the traditional style of game play" I take it that you mean looting dungeons for treasure. My sense of how treasure plays in 5e as it is presented, seems to be pretty much like Keep on the Borderlands but without the XP awards.)

I understand the "treasure as afterthought to action" approach in the context of those editions that make having treasure to spend an important element of character development, or that make it a literal win condition (in classic D&D you need to find it to earn XP, and then spend it to join the endgame; in 4e it is part of the doling out of PC abilities, either literally in the form of magic items, or in the form of the medium used to acquire magic items). I don't really get it for 5e, though. As a win condition it seems to have become detached from the actual play of the game and the develpoment of the characters. So why does it loom so large?

Maintaining a wealthy lifestyle requires around 1,500 gp a year, an Aristocratic one 3,600. Assume you want to retire from adventuring at some point means a human would need 45,000+ gold minimum. Want to build your own castle? You'll need 500,000gp just to build and another 140,000 per year to maintain. That's a CR17+ treasure hoard every year.

Of course, all of those things come with their own complications, as does spending money trying to buy magic items, as doing so could draw the attention of other powerful beings.

Spending money is all grounded in the particular story you are involved in.
I don't feel that this answers my question; it really just underpins it and sparks new, related questions.

Presumably in the imaginary world of D&D (or at least many, I'd even conjecture most, D&D campaigns) there are aristocrats who live at the "aristocratic" standard of upkeep and live in castles, but don't loot a dragon hoard every year. If a player wants his/her PC to become an aristocrat and live in a castle, why does the game suggest that killing dragons is the answer?

To be clear: I know what the reason is in classic D&D - it's a game of dungeon exploration and looting in which gp are the win condition, both in terms of achievement at looting and PC progression. But I'm wondering what's the deal with 5e - is it still a dungeon crawling game that's dropped the second (PC progression) part of the classic D&D win condition? If so, how is this tight design? If not, then why does it still connect adventuring to loot-collection in the way that classic D&D did?

And to the point of this thread and Mearl's statement, not being as granular about the rules allows DMs to better tell the story that their individual table is interested in. Could this mean that there is a disagreement at the table over how much 100,000 gp should be able to purchase? Yes, it might, but that disagreement carries a much lower consequence to it than one over whether or not the evil Orc hit you with it's sword and killed you.
That seems a pretty contentious claim, unless we accept as a premise that the stakes of play are ultimately about the PC living or dying in one-on-one combat.

Combat in D&D takes up so much design space because it is both the primary player agency mechanism and has the highest stakes. As long as the rules of life and death are seen as fair, the players can use that to impact the world with an expectation that the results will not be at DM whim.

For example, if the DM decides that no amount of money can buy a castle because the King must grant the land, the players can use the rules of combat to kill the King and build the castle anyhow. This in turn, leads back to the central conceit of the game as it was designed, for the DM and players to create an exciting story of bold adventurers who confront deadly perils.

And that to me is the whole point of the 5E design philosophy. What are the minimum amount of rules necessary to inspire and tell that exciting story? I'd argue that the extensive combat rules both inspire the imagination in exciting action packed scenes and give players a sense of agency without perfect certainty leading to careful weighing of options on how to engage the world. Extensive travel rules or shopping rules just don't, IMO, have the same rewards for added complexity.
OK, so you're prepared to embrace the contentious premise!

The bit I've bolded seems to run togehter some potentially separate things - it's the primary player agency mechanism, but that's in part because there are no other robust mechanics that generate finality of resolution without being mediated through largely open-ended GM decision-making; and even allowing that it is the primary player agency mechanism, that needn't require it to be as complex as it is.

As to the idea that travel rules or shopping rules add complexity, I don't agree with that. 4e has travel rules (skill challenge), shopping rules (skill challenge), persuading-the-king rules (skill challenge), and they're not very complex, can be used in other fictional contexts besides the ones I've mentioned, and work reasonably well. And there are plenty of other RPGs that have genuinely uniform resolution mechanics that can be used for everything from fighting to persuading to trekking to shopping. (And Classic Traveller got fairly close to this 40 years ago; closer, at least, than 5e.)

That's not to say that 5e is poorly-designed - there might be good reason to break out combat rules from a generic resolution system, give it a rather high search-and-handling time, while subordinating other possible domains of action and resoltution. But I don't think it's light, and I think to a significant extent it trades on legacy expectations and understandings.
 

Oofta

Legend
You seem to have mistaken me for some other poster. I haven't said anything about you, let alone suggested that you're gullible or a fool.

If you think someone engaging in criticism of the writing or design of a book or game you enjoy is an attack on you, I think that's on you. On this thread I've read more than one poster attacking 4e as poorly conceived, poorly designed, unplayable, etc. I don't take those as personal attacks. And just because I think those people are wrong, that doesn't mean I think they're fools.

This thread is discussing the design of a game, not the morals or character of those who designed it or those who play it.

I never meant to imply you meant it as a dog-whistle, just pointing out common usage. I get that you are using it differently than the vast majority of posters, so if that wasn't clear I apologize. But the vast majority of people who do use it seem to use it in pejorative manner.

Being called a 5E apologist is not new to this thread, it's kind of this forum's equivalent of being called Hitler. So what I'm trying to say is that you're defending a phrase because of the way you would use the term while the generally accepted usage of that term appears to mean something else on these forums.
 

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