Mearls On D&D's Design Premises/Goals

First of all, thanks Morrus for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes. That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to...

First of all, thanks [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes.

That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to fans of the other, but those differences do matter. There are ways in which I like the prescriptive elements of 3.x era games (I like set skill difficulty lists, for example) but I tend to run by the seat of my pants and the effects of my beer, so a fast and loose and forgiving version like 5E really enables me running a game the way I like to.
 

Hussar

Legend
I feel that too tightly focusing on the "story" of a subclass makes a subclass too narrow to be appealing. It's why, for example, I find the Battle Master such a fantastic subclass despite Mearls thinking it's one of the weakest.

The Battle Master can be anything. It can be an Arcane Archer (not literally but you can fluff stuff if you want), a Samurai, a Cavalier. It can basically be any subclass you want except the Eldritch Knight. Its "story" isn't the story the designers give you; its story is the one the player gives it. You can "Battle Master" almost any fighter concept you can come up with.

Alternatively though, because Battle Master's come with virtually no story, it can be difficult to distinguish the character in a group. After all, sure, you decide to model your BM as a Samurai, but, then you look at other classes where the story behind the class is much stronger, and it's a lot easier to make your character stand out. Paladins, for example, drip with story. As do warlocks, druids and clerics. It's easy to make one of those characters and make them really stand out at the table. Even within the class. A bladelock and a Pact of the Book warlock is very different and will look and play very different.

Your BM, OTOH, whether he's a samurai, a cavalier or a whatever, still plays very much like a BM and there isn't a whole lot to hang story off of for those characters. Never minding the Champion fighter which is about as vanilla as you can possibly get.
 

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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
An utterance is verbal. A thought is telepathic. You cannot make a telepathic utterance.

ut·ter·ance
ˈədərəns/
noun

  • a spoken word, statement, or vocal sound.
  • the action of saying or expressing something aloud.
  • an uninterrupted chain of spoken or written language.

This is a case where being pedantic literally makes you wrong. The natural language understanding of the sentence is quite clear.
 


doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
No man. It doesn't match reality, because in reality there aren't plants that move and eat you, disguised as normal plants. I don't have to worry in a forest that a treant might want to kill me.
People are dangerous. You’re using nit picking as a rhetorical device, rather than trying to engage seriously with other people in a discussion.


It doesn't say that you have to wait until you see a weapon coming for your face, either. A potential threat is still a threat to you. A dragon sitting on a hill is only a potential threat. Are you telling me that it can get surprise on a group of wary adventurers? That's absurd. The rule is not clearly explained, which is fine. Vague rules are in line with 5e stated design goal.

of course you can. 100%. It requires stealth, but unless they are just more Alert than is normally possible, they can be ambushed and taken by surprise.

The dragon con can get surprise on the party just like assassins posing as merchants could, though I’d put the dragon at Disadvantage to ease the worry of the adventurers, where the assassins would roll their deception straight. I’m not sure what is confusing there.

First half of the sentence, "You can communicate however you are able," which means that there are no limits to the ways you can communicate, so long as you are able. The second half of the sentence, "through brief utterances and gestures," limiting you to exactly two ways to communicate. If you have telepathy, you can't use it as it's not one of the two ways set forth, except that you can because you can communicate however you are able!! It contradicts itself very clearly.

Those aren’t contradictions. You can communicate however you’re able. Ie by any means you’re capable of. Sign language, speech, telepathy, whatever. The game doesn’t care. You can’t soak at length. You have to keep it short.

There literally isnt a contradiction there.

Oh, and BTW, it’s completely normal and broadly accepted to use terms for spoken communication when discussing telepathy.
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
I feel that too tightly focusing on the "story" of a subclass makes a subclass too narrow to be appealing. It's why, for example, I find the Battle Master such a fantastic subclass despite Mearls thinking it's one of the weakest.

The Battle Master can be anything. It can be an Arcane Archer (not literally but you can fluff stuff if you want), a Samurai, a Cavalier. It can basically be any subclass you want except the Eldritch Knight. Its "story" isn't the story the designers give you; its story is the one the player gives it. You can "Battle Master" almost any fighter concept you can come up with.

I think it is well understood that there are players who care about the mechanics first and then fit the story in after.

Much of the 'flaws' that I have seen people gripe about come down to this.

It's just different preferences. We know you like cherries more than apples. You're probably not going to find much success if you try to convince people that they should like cherries more than apples.

The designers of 5e have goals which are contrary to what you like. And that's okay. A statement like this from Mearls clarifies his design goals which helps to set expectations.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
The intent is clear. The sentence is wrong. It's like RAI vs. RAW.
It’s not wrong, though. Common usage is literally always correct, by definition. Using terminology originally intended for verbal speech to talk about telepathy is the common usage for speaking about telepathy.

Further, in agame written in natural language, obviously clear RAI *is* RAW, in any case where the writing itself makes RAI obviously clear.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
You are misapplying the ability check rule for ties. The rule for ties is for contests ONLY and initiative is not a ability contest. There is no winner and loser like with opposed checks, so that rule does not apply. The general rule for tied initiative between DM and players is that the DM decides.............just like if there was no rule.

It is a contest. It is a direct context between every combatant, just like deception vs insight, or two character using insight to see who is going to flinch/move/lose their nerve first in a game of chicken.

but because it is resolved somewhat differently, it has specific rules.
[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] Great post, and I’ll get into more tomorrow when I can dig into something that long, but for right now I just want to say that attacking an enemy is exactly the same as making one of several checks to get through a series of locks/parts of a complex lock to get into a vault. The only narrative change is that you’ve worn down the enemy more, or gotten closer to busting the vault.
 

KenNYC

Explorer
Become an official reviewer.

I don't know about that. Game reviewers are not quite the New York Times. Often times they are someone like Tom Vassel or Rahdo, who review games on youtube or run game cons. They almost never give a bad review to games. If they frequently did, a la a scathing Broadway critic circa 1950, how long do you think they would continue to get free games from publishers?

Official reviews are to be taken with a grain of salt. As an employee of the NY Post (owned by Rupert Murdoch) told me once, they had instructions to be nice to 20th Century Fox films whenever possible. A fraternity brother of mine got a job reviewing video games for an online site. What qualified him to be a game reviewer? You got me, but he knew someone and got the job. More power to him I say.

Go look at the comic book website newsarama. They have been reviewing comics something like 20 years using a 1-10 rating system. To my knowledge they have never encountered a comic book that deserved a rating lower than 5 in all these years. How is that possible?

Some nameless person on the internet may indeed have something valid to say.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
People are dangerous. You’re using nit picking as a rhetorical device, rather than trying to engage seriously with other people in a discussion.

Then they are a threat and PCs who notice people can't be surprised, by RAW.

of course you can. 100%. It requires stealth, but unless they are just more Alert than is normally possible, they can be ambushed and taken by surprise.

The dragon con can get surprise on the party just like assassins posing as merchants could, though I’d put the dragon at Disadvantage to ease the worry of the adventurers, where the assassins would roll their deception straight. I’m not sure what is confusing there.

No offense, but I wouldn't want to play in a game where I'm forced to be clueless next to a dragon just so that it can surprise me. Not even Forest Gump would be caught off guard by a dragon.

Those aren’t contradictions. You can communicate however you’re able. Ie by any means you’re capable of. Sign language, speech, telepathy, whatever. The game doesn’t care. You can’t soak at length. You have to keep it short.

The game does care. It limits you to exactly two forms of communication. Verbal(utterances) and gestures.

Oh, and BTW, it’s completely normal and broadly accepted to use terms for spoken communication when discussing telepathy.

Happens all the time in the real world does it? I can't think of being in or hearing about enough conversations regarding telepathy that I would describe it as "normal" and "broadly accepted" to use terms for spoken communication to describe it. I really doubt enough people have had that conversation to qualify as either normal or broadly accepted.

Books that I've read sometimes make it images, or they just understand each other without words, or they hear, but not really hear, words in their head.

It’s not wrong, though. Common usage is literally always correct, by definition. Using terminology originally intended for verbal speech to talk about telepathy is the common usage for speaking about telepathy.

The common usage for utterance is verbal only. That's the common usage, which you say is literally always correct. It's not just uncommon, it's bloody rare for people to even be discussing telepathy at all, let alone using the word utterance when doing it.

Further, in agame written in natural language, obviously clear RAI *is* RAW, in any case where the writing itself makes RAI obviously clear.

Not according to Jeremy Crawford who puts in the RAW interpretation of rules into the Sage Advice, and then includes the RAI interpretation as something separate.

It is a contest. It is a direct context between every combatant, just like deception vs insight, or two character using insight to see who is going to flinch/move/lose their nerve first in a game of chicken

This is flat out wrong. A contest is when you have two ability checks in direct opposition to one another, such as when one person is trying open a door, and the other trying to close it.

A "contest" like a javelin toss might use ability checks to see how far you throw the javelin, but that does not qualify as a contest as written in the PHB. Per RAW there are only two times you have a contest.

"Sometimes one character’s or monster’s efforts are directly opposed to another’s. This can occur when both of them are trying to do the same thing and only one can succeed, such as attempting to snatch up a magic ring that has fallen on the floor. This situation also applies when one of them is trying to prevent the other one from accomplishing a goal—for example, when a monster tries to force open a door that an adventurer is holding closed. In situations like these, the outcome is determined by a special form of ability check, called a contest."

When you roll initiative, you are not engaging in an act in which only one can succeed, nor are you trying to prevent anyone else from accomplishing initiative. There is no contest as defined by RAW.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
And to the point of this thread and Mearl's statement, not being as granular about the rules allows DMs to better tell the story that their individual table is interested in. Could this mean that there is a disagreement at the table over how much 100,000 gp should be able to purchase? Yes, it might, but that disagreement carries a much lower consequence to it than one over whether or not the evil Orc hit you with it's sword and killed you.

Combat in D&D takes up so much design space because it is both the primary player agency mechanism and has the highest stakes. As long as the rules of life and death are seen as fair, the players can use that to impact the world with an expectation that the results will not be at DM whim.

For example, if the DM decides that no amount of money can buy a castle because the King must grant the land, the players can use the rules of combat to kill the King and build the castle anyhow. This in turn, leads back to the central conceit of the game as it was designed, for the DM and players to create an exciting story of bold adventurers who confront deadly perils.

And that to me is the whole point of the 5E design philosophy. What are the minimum amount of rules necessary to inspire and tell that exciting story? I'd argue that the extensive combat rules both inspire the imagination in exciting action packed scenes and give players a sense of agency without perfect certainty leading to careful weighing of options on how to engage the world. Extensive travel rules or shopping rules just don't, IMO, have the same rewards for added complexity. There are also diminishing returns on increasing the complexity of combat to these goals as well.
To kill a King typically requires an army. Armies are expensive... war is a continuation of economics by other means.
 

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