D&D 5E How many fans want a 5E Warlord?

How many fans want a 5E Warlord?

  • I want a 5E Warlord

    Votes: 139 45.9%
  • Lemmon Curry

    Votes: 169 55.8%

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mellored

Legend
Lazylord: "Hey, fighter. You can totally hit that monster twice as many times within 6 seconds as you thought."
Fighter: "Weird. I guess I'm clearly capable of it. Why wasn't I able to do that yesterday when you weren't around? You must know a lot more about sword fighting than I. Get up here and do it too."
Lazylord: "I can't. I'm pretty lame at it, actually. I can only tell others how to do it. Here, let me tell you how awesome you are so your wounds won't hurt as much."
Fighter: "But I am clearly not as awesome as I thought. At least not unless you are around telling me how to swing my sword. So you are the one who is truly awesome it would seem."

Wizard:"Hey, fighter. You can totally hit that monster twice as many times within 6 seconds as you thought."
Fighter: "Weird. I guess I'm clearly capable of it. Why wasn't I able to do that yesterday when you weren't around? You must know a lot more about sword fighting than I. Get up here and do it too."
Wizard: "I can't. I'm pretty lame at it, actually. I can only tell others how to do it. Here, let me tell you how awesome magic is so your wounds won't hurt as much."
Fighter: "But I am clearly not as awesome as I thought. At least not unless you are around telling me how to swing my sword. So you are the one who is truly awesome it would seem."


Cleric:"Hey, fighter. You can totally hit that monster twice as accurately you thought."
Fighter: "Weird. I guess I'm clearly capable of it. Why wasn't I able to do that yesterday when you weren't around? You must know a lot more about sword fighting than I. Get up here and do it too."
Cleric: "I can't. I'm pretty lame at it, actually. I can only tell others how to do it. Here, let me tell you how awesome my god is so your wounds won't hurt as much."
Fighter: "But I am clearly not as awesome as I thought. At least not unless you are around telling me how to swing my sword. So you are the one who is truly awesome it would seem."

Why can't anyone just pray?
 
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ChrisCarlson

First Post
You know what? Fair enough. I concede the point that my stating I'd have a hard time believing his follow-up paragraph if I didn't believe his opening statement is in fact hyperbolic on my part too. That's completely fair.

So let me amend my statement. I have a hard time caring about someone's point when they make other hyperbolic claims out of the shoot, because I do not believe they are going to discuss or argue from a place of reasonableness.

Is that a fault of mine? Yup. But... as we are all on here to discuss D&D, I think it's safe to assume we want our voices heard. So anything we do or say that makes people not take us seriously or automatically closes their ears to our opinions is not something I suspect most of us want to do. But hey... if TrippyHippy doesn't give a darn about whether I read his/her stuff, and thus (s)he decides to continue to use the language (s)he chooses... that's cool. More power to them! Yeah, (s)he'll still occasionally see me respond to his posts (unless Trippy 'Ignores' me), but if Trippy's able to just roll their eyes at me and my posts, then problem solved! :)
Agreed all around.

Likewise, I think being argumentative or belligerent (not saying you specifically, in general) can also put people off of the rest of what you have to say, regardless of any of its individual merits.
 

ChrisCarlson

First Post
Wizard:"Hey, fighter. You can totally hit that monster twice as many times within 6 seconds as you thought."
Fighter: "Weird. I guess I'm clearly capable of it. Why wasn't I able to do that yesterday when you weren't around? You must know a lot more about sword fighting than I. Get up here and do it too."
Wizard: "I can't. I'm pretty lame at it, actually. I can only tell others how to do it. Here, let me tell you how awesome magic is so your wounds won't hurt as much."
Fighter: "But I am clearly not as awesome as I thought. At least not unless you are around telling me how to swing my sword. So you are the one who is truly awesome it would seem."


Cleric:"Hey, fighter. You can totally hit that monster twice as accurately you thought."
Fighter: "Weird. I guess I'm clearly capable of it. Why wasn't I able to do that yesterday when you weren't around? You must know a lot more about sword fighting than I. Get up here and do it too."
Cleric: "I can't. I'm pretty lame at it, actually. I can only tell others how to do it. Here, let me tell you how awesome my god is so your wounds won't hurt as much."
Fighter: "But I am clearly not as awesome as I thought. At least not unless you are around telling me how to swing my sword. So you are the one who is truly awesome it would seem."
Both are misleading. I know, I know, you hate "cuz magic." But in the former, the fighter really can swing twice as fast because the wizard cast haste to make him preternaturally fast. And the fighter really does have the palpable inspiration of a divine being guiding his hand when he swings because his is blessed.

But a lazylord is just saying, "You should just swing your sword again," as if the fighter hadn't already thought of that on his own or made the effort were it within his capability. He's fighting for his life, after all. Why would he not swing more often if he could?
 

Eric V

Hero
I already told you once to read the entirety of my posts in this conversation to understand. Or are you intentionally parsing out the rest of what I said in order to cast my words in a different light? Do you have a back button or must I repost the previous post that he directly responded to, which in turn prompted the reply you just quoted out of context?


Rarely have I seen such ironic chastising.

Is this how things are done around here? I was told you folks were above this sort of nonsense. :/

Go ahead and throw me on the ignore list then, but honestly, going through your responses, you really didn't show any spurious or illogical reasoning on the part of [MENTION=59506]El Mahdi[/MENTION]. You really didn't. I honestly feel you've conflated a difference of preference with something else entirely.
 

El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
Yes but you've all been trained in similar if not the exact same way...the leader has the necessary knowledge of military procedures, tactics, weaponry, etc. could a Project Manager whose great at leading IT people come in and lead soldiers while they were under fire successfully? Or are we saying the Warlord is just knowledgeable enough and good enough at everything from sneaking to melee combat to spells that he can lead such a disparate group of people?

An Army IT project manager? Yes.

For a long time the military would have said No, but in the last 20 years or so that has really started to change. They've become much better at teaching leadership, recognizing leadership, and utilizing leadership - regardless of MOS (or AFSC in the Air Force).

Leadership is a skill that's applicable in any situation; and while there are some differences between civilian and military leadership, they are far less than you might think.

Now I'm by no means saying that a Leader doesn't have to have any understanding of the "jobs" those they lead are doing. But Expertise in their subordinates jobs is most certainly not a necessity.

A combat leader obviously needs to understand tactics. Depending on their level of leadership (rank/responsibility), they may also need proficiency in strategy. But does a combat leader need to be able to shoot as well as their soldiers? Know how to fix a tank in the field? Know how to calculate targeting parameters for a piece of artillery?

No.

But they can certainly inspire those that do to be better at it than they otherwise would.

Same thing with a Warlord.

Does a Warlord know how to pick a lock? Is a Warlord capable of suddenly dashing across the battlefield to help an ally? Can a Warlord cast spells or have the first inkling of how magic works?

No.

But they can certainly inspire a thief to pick a lock under pressure. They can motivate an assassin to dash across the battlefield - even when they've used their actions for the round - to back up a besieged ally. And they can definitely assist in the most tactically efficient, supportive, and effective use of magic - like a commander directing artillery fire.


Now it certainly doesn't hurt if a leader is also an expert in what their people do, but it's not a necessity. Having that expertise can help initially, but usually only as a way to facilitate personal authority. In the long run, it doesn't matter.

I realize though that I just introduced something into the conversation that I haven't covered before: Personal Authority.

Don't anybody go freaking out over the word "Authority", or start worrying that this means a Warlord character can tell all of the other character what to do.

A Leader can possess two types of authority. Having both is best, though not necessary, and one by itself is stronger than the other.

First, there's Positional Authority. This is authority based on rank or position. In D&D it could be "He's in charge because the King (DM) said he was."

Second, there's Personal Authority (also known as "Earned" Authority). This is authority based on the respect or esteem that others have for you. This one is something that has to be cultivated. It's earned through competence and inspiring trust. It's the hardest to achieve, but the strongest authority one can have.

I like to view D&D Warlord authority as Personal Authority; though it can be Positional if that's how one wants to roleplay it. A Warlord with Personal Authority is able to direct their allies because they trust them. They don't feel they are being told what to do, they've just seen first hand the benefits of doing so.

The way we've been designing the leadership features in the Warlording the Fighter thread, is that the other characters are under no requirement to do what the Warlord directs. However, if they don't, then the group does not gain the benefits that would result. In fact, if the Warlord can't inspire their group to follow their directions, it's the Warlord that's penalized through loss of their actions.

Though the argument could be made that the group also suffers if the Warlord loses their actions - but that's what happens with bad or failed leadership - lack of synergy.
 

mellored

Legend
But a lazylord is just saying, "You should just swing your sword again," as if the fighter hadn't already thought of that on his own or made the effort were it within his capability. He's fighting for his life, after all. Why would he not swing more often if he could?
Well yea... he's lazy...

You don't expect him to want to spend years of time devoted to study or prayer in order to boost the fighter though some supernal ability.

He spends years of time studying optimal martial practices.
 


mellored

Legend
Also, IMO, grant extra attack should be kept at a minimum, for any class.
Playing with the action economy was what broke 4e.


I'd much rather have something like "You study the opponent and point out his weakness. As an action, allies gain +1d6 damage against the target."
 

Imaro

Legend
The things the 4e Warlord did are so prevalent in genre, and even in broader heroic genres of any sort, that it's really comical to argue they don't exist. Yet, it's been tried. Now that it's been debunked, there's the opposite extreme: that the warlord shouldn't exist because everyone can do what it does. That's as valid and rational a position as saying that the Fighter shouldn't exist because anyone can pick up a sword.

You realize those two arguments actually support each other...right? The Warlord "archetype" doesn't exist because he's not an actual stand alone archetype... but that doesn't in any way preclude the characteristics associated by most people with the warlord class of 4e being common but not defining most fantasy characters that are other archetypes... nice try though. :erm:

But that won't stop anyone from trying it.


Case in point.

Anyone might exercise leadership at some point, so we don't need a Warlord?
But, by that logic, anyone can swing a sword, so we don't need the fighter.

Well if that was my argument you might have a point, but it's not. It's that nearly every fanatsy protagonist at some point displays the characteristics of a warlord... Everyone from Gandalf to Conan to Frodo... being someone who inspires people in and of itself is a trait nearly all fantasy characters actually (not potentially) display at some point and time... and thus it is not distinct enough to base an archetype on... It's not that they can, it's that majority of them do, it's like claiming that there is a "walker" archetype and then saying it must exist because you're showing people walk... sorry you didn't grasp my point... but I think most people in the thread understood it well enough, hopefully this explanation helps.

First you pretend the Warlord archetype doesn't exist, then you pretend it's ubiquitous. In both cases, you try to imply a standard for inclusion that the Warlord wouldn't meet, but, in both cases, existing classes would also fail to meet that standard.

No... they wouldn't.


The Warlord apparently worked for the concept, and it's not an herbalist or maker of healing potions, while the Cleric didn't work (and has been able to make potions). Doesn't seem like an unfair bit of speculation to say that such stuff 'may be well outside the character concept.'

Here's a novel concept, how about you let the poster I suggested these things too actually answer whether it fits his needs or not? Until that happens all of what you are saying is pointless speculation.

No, because he's not prepared for the stress of combat, but the other way works: military experience is seen as a good source of leadership experience in the business world. And a good Project Manager whose always done IT could probably manage a project in other functional areas pretty well. Leadership is a fairly portable skill.

You totally missed my point with this answer but that's ok...

No. Well, maybe 'knowledgeable about,' depending on the concept. A Warlord might not cast spells, but it'd make sense that he'd be familiar with what his allies can do with magic, for instance.

Why does that make sense if he doesn't have the Arcana (or equivalent skill)? Again see the Sergeant vs. IT manager above...


The Warlord concept generally /is/ a warrior (fan-enthusiasm-based 'lazylords' notwithstanding). But, yes, there's no shortage of characters whose main thing is leadership. Typically their secondary thing is martial skill, but not always. And, D&D has multi-classing, so it's not like there's no way to model characters less focused than the typical D&D class.

Like who? What character in fantasy fiction spends equal or more time leading others (since that is what the 4e warlord does.) as opposed to fighting in melee, attacking with a bow, casting magic, striking stealthily? If it's the other way around then he is a fighter/ranger/wizard/thief/etc. with some leadership abilities...

It's really pretty hard to find examples of ensemble casts in any sort of genre who are as balanced as RPG parties need to be. Any example of a class from genre is likely to be more or less 'major' (powerful, central to the plot or whatever) than other characters in the same story. Gandalf is theoretically more powerful than anyone else in the Fellowship - doesn't mean you can't have Wizards in D&D.

It's not about balance...Again you missed my entire point... When I play it feels wrong being the great and powerful wizard who gets told what to do by the Warlord who can't cast a single spell... the fact that it doesn't happen in hardly any fiction only heightens my distaste for it.
 

ChrisCarlson

First Post
Go ahead and throw me on the ignore list then, but honestly, going through your responses, you really didn't show any spurious or illogical reasoning on the part of [MENTION=59506]El Mahdi[/MENTION]. You really didn't. I honestly feel you've conflated a difference of preference with something else entirely.
Hyperbolic, indeed. I never said I was going to put you on an ignore list.

Here's the post I made I prior to the one you took out of context:

And yet the rest of his post does stand on its own. In entirely separate paragraphs even. So you avoided responding to it and instead singled out the throwaway lead-in. If you ask me, that's telling to the lack of strength of your own point. Avoidance is a thing just like hyperbole.

So, there's my logic. And DEFCON 1 even acknowledged it. Dismissing a posters valid points because of a lead-in, obviously hyperbolic comment, is likely one of two things: illogical or spurious.

Correction: One of three things, actually. Per DEFCON 1's post above, I will add "hyperbolic in-and-of itself".

Now, please prove my point by denouncing everything I've ever posted as illogical because you happen to not agree with something I said.
 

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