WotC Considering NPC Stat Format Change

MNblockhead · Mar 11, 2019

Ghal Maraz said:
Meh. Adventures make for really bad reads.

If I want to enjoy the background of an RPG, adventures are the last place I head to.

Adventure modules should be meant as a way to give DMs an easier time. Nothing less, nothing more. Interpretation guidelines shouldn't have places in stat-blocks: there should be different places for the two different (but complementary) things.

While I agree that adventure module should make it easier for the DM to run, which is why I would like to keep the stat blocks, I disagree that "[a]dventures make for really bad reads" and that they "should be meant as a way to give DMs an easier time."

I quite enjoy reading adventure modules and have enjoyed this "lonely fun" since the days of 1e. You don't read it as a novel. You read the intro sections and jump around, following the map, travelling through the dungeon or what have you in your mind.

This does more than just help a DM prep the module, it inspires the DM on how that DM will run it and perhaps alter it for his or her specific game.

The Curse of Strahd is a great example of a module that I thoroughly enjoyed reading through long before I ever ran it, while also being pretty well designed to help me run it as a DM.

That doesn't mean every room needs paragraphs of description and back story. But I don't think that making a module enjoyable to read through and enjoyable to run as a DM are mutually exclusive goals.

MNblockhead · Mar 11, 2019

dwayne said:
Why not just have perforated cards in back with stats on them so you can remove and keep handy with all information. No need to put any thing other than name as all on card in back of adventure or book.

Not sure the actual reasons, but my guesses, and my reasons are:

They want you to buy the Monster Manual, which is why they only bold the names of monsters from the MM, and only give stats in an appendix for new monsters.
It costs more to print special pull-out pages, which means to keep the price point in line with what consumers expect from a 5e adventure hardback, they would have to subtract from the actual adventure content (the story, location descriptions, maps).
Pull out materials are hard to keep with the hardback. Many consumers, like myself, find them annoying.
Many consumers (like myself) do not want to adulterate our modules to play them. I buy the books to enjoy and read through, but for adventures I run, I run from DnD Beyond or Realm Works. I want to keep my books in nice condition. Also, pull-outs that are printed in the books tend to be low quality. I much prefer to have maps and physical play aids to be sold separately, which WotC and 3rd parties have been doing with recent adventures. So, I don't think there is a large enough group who would be willing to pay more money for pull out materials in the hard cover books (or pay the same but get less adventure), who are unwilling to shell out for separate physical or digital play aids.
Electronic versions like D&D Beyond (and I assume the Fantasy Grounds and Roll20 versions as well) it is so easy to pull up the entire stat block as an instant popup or a new tab/window in your Internet browser. There are also tools like RealmWorks and Herolabs that provide even more tools to run the game (I assume World Anvil and similar competitors have similar functionality). In short, for the DMs who are so concerned about efficiency and convenience that they have a problem with leafing through the Monster Manual or to an appendix of NPCs at the back of the module, they are likely to go with electronic tools.

tuxedoraptor · Mar 11, 2019

This is why I abandoned 5e, WotC is going to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory as I predicted because they can't leave

alone, if it works, don't fix it.
Mearls is the creator of the abomination known as essentials for 4e, hes gonna pull the same

with 5e most likely. Maybe instead of worthless changes like this, they should be focusing on fixing things that need to be fixed, like the fact intelligence is a worthless stat, the sorcerer is pretty bland and the entire goddamn ranger class.

GothicEmperor · Mar 11, 2019

So this is just about them using a sentence structure in NPC descriptions? Okay, that doesn't affect me at all. Most of it's just gobbledegook I refluff anyway.

I guess there's the deeper issue of NPC stat blocks, which are also rather perfunctory. I can pick out relevant stats from the Monster Manual myself, and I don't see why Famous Forgotten Realms Characters need to be given their own page in the back for stats that won't ever be used, not even by the people who actually play in the Realms.

robus · Mar 11, 2019

MichaelSomething said:
https://www.amazon.com/Monster-Card...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=7E3Q0YJHNCBR1BR6K7BP

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/205572/DD-5th-Edition-Monster-Cards

Is this what you're looking for???

I’d forgotten about the monster cards! Thanks for the reminder!

Haffrung · Mar 11, 2019

I'll echo the sentiments of others here that my biggest complaint with 5E is the presentation of the game content - how important information is buried in walls of text. It makes it extremely difficult to run their adventures at the table, and usually necessitates hours spent summarising the text into an easily parsed format.

The problem is bad enough that I have real reservations about buying any more WotC 5E campaign books. So I oppose any initiatives to move further in that direction.

The elephant in the room is that WotC know at least half the market for their books are people who don't actually use them in a game, and instead treat them as reading material. And those two purposes for a book - pleasant reading material and useful in-game reference - are at odds with one another. Other RPG publishers have made strides in squaring this circle and making adventure content easier to use at the table. But for some reason, WotC is extremely conservative when it comes to adventure format.

timbannock · Mar 11, 2019

GothicEmperor said:
So this is just about them using a sentence structure in NPC descriptions? Okay, that doesn't affect me at all. Most of it's just gobbledegook I refluff anyway.

I guess there's the deeper issue of NPC stat blocks, which are also rather perfunctory. I can pick out relevant stats from the Monster Manual myself, and I don't see why Famous Forgotten Realms Characters need to be given their own page in the back for stats that won't ever be used, not even by the people who actually play in the Realms.

I couldn't disagree with any statement more than this one. I can't even count how many different NPCs I've had in my games that used the "specific NPC stat blocks" from Curse of Strahd and Tomb of Annihilation alone. Esmerelda and van Richten have seen more use in my campaigns than veterans and knights.

;-P

Haffrung · Mar 11, 2019

Henry said:
Thing is, there are millions of people actively playing D&D currently (something like 12 to 15 million last surveys) - I really doubt the majority are just reading and not playing the released material. back when it was more like 3 to 4 million active players about 15 to 20 years ago, i could see a bunch of DMs just reading and shelving the stuff. I can't speak to Storm King's Thunder -- Out of the Abyss was pretty good, actually, as we Curse of Strahd and Tomb of Annihilation, and I'm running Dragon Heist just fine right now -- admittedly, i'm putting my own spin on it, but that's how it's meant to be run.

Years ago I recall Erik Mona on the Paizo boards commenting that they know half the people who buy an Adventure Path chapter are buying it just to read, and they write the material accordingly. I don't see any reason to believe the market is any different for D&D.

If I had to guess a breakdown of uses of an adventure campaign book like Storm King's Thunder, I'd say it looks something like:

A) 30% bought by someone not in an active game
B) 30% bought by someone in an active game with the aspiration to play it someday but it remains unplayed
C) 40% bought by someone who uses it in a game

If the bigwigs at WotC decided that their books should be written and laid out to appeal strictly to category C, we would see a dramatic difference in the design of the books that appear on the shelves.

timbannock · Mar 11, 2019

Haffrung said:
Years ago I recall Erik Mona on the Paizo boards commenting that they know half the people who buy an Adventure Path chapter are buying it just to read, and they write the material accordingly. I don't see any reason to believe the market is any different for D&D.

If I had to guess a breakdown of uses of an adventure campaign book like Storm King's Thunder, I'd say it looks something like:

A) 30% bought by someone not in an active game
B) 30% bought by someone in an active game with the aspiration to play it someday but it remains unplayed
C) 40% bought by someone who uses it in a game

If the bigwigs at WotC decided that their books should be written and laid out to appeal strictly to category C, we would see a dramatic difference in the design of the books that appear on the shelves.

And worth keeping in mind that even if those percentages are off, the "uses it in a game" crowd is going to have some not insignificant percentage that is really using it in a homebrew game. That too colors how they parse the information: if it's presented more as a readable 'sourcebook' as opposed to just the necessities of an encounter, for example, then it's going to serve those homebrewers even better. I forget the exact number, but I believe it was Sly Flourish who did a study with thousands of respondents and found the vast majority didn't use published settings and adventures as-is.

EthanSental · Mar 11, 2019

Haffrung said:
Other RPG publishers have made strides in squaring this circle and making adventure content easier to use at the table. But for some reason, WotC is extremely conservative when it comes to adventure format.

I might have missed it if you mentioned it elsewhere, but got an example rpg game or publisher you mention above so I can see what you mean? I’ve mainly played D&D, pathfinder, some osr games and various superhero games back in the day and just curious of the easier content you mention by other companies.

Thanks!