How do YOU handle a Fastball Special, and other team manuevers?

doctorbadwolf · Apr 14, 2019

Cap'n Kobold said:
You . . . might want to scroll up a bit, and then maybe apologise to DannyAlcatraz. - He was directly discussing accuracy of such throws with HawkDiesel, which is where the possibility of missing a throw would be being discussed.

You were the first person to start talking about balls. DannyAlcatraz was discussing caber and hammer throws. Not balls.
A ball of equivalent weight would be much harder to throw than a caber or hammer to equivalent distance - even harder than a humanoid.

If you’re just going to twist what people say to “win” internet argument points, find someone else. I couldn’t be more bored by such nonsense.

Click to expand...

You’ve misunderstood my response, actually. The hammer throw is a ball at the end of a chain, and the other major example ITT is a “weight” which is just a heavy ball with a handle.

To the other element of the reply in question, he stated to hawk that it is very possible that such objects cannot be thrown accurately. I argued that there is no particular reason to beleive that is true. He replied as if I’d said that people don’t ever missthrow balls.

I generally respect [MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION] and I think in this case he just got caught up in “winning” an argument, and I have no patience for pedantic counters or for misrepresenting what someone said.

Dannyalcatraz · Apr 14, 2019

No, I didn’t say that objects like that cannot be thrown accurately. I was responding to:

I don’t think that there is any significant chance that a ball can’t be thrown accurately.

To which I responded that professional baseball players mis-throw balls every day. Sometimes, they do so with alarming inaccuracy.

Those are people who have been training decades to throw balls accurately, and they still screw it up. An infielder trying to throw on the run to first base has a largish target- a space @8’ tall and 14’ wide- because the first baseman is actively trying to catch the ball. And still, balls go sailing into the dugouts, bleachers and other parts of the field.

Because of time pressure- something also present in combat- inaccuracies are introduced.

Now, imagine trying to hit a man-sized target that doesn’t want to be hit.

And going back to the Guinness throwing video, look at the person who was thrown. Did he look like he landed in a way conducive to success in melee?

(FWIW, I don’t really believe in “winning” internet discussions, so shelve that concept.)

doctorbadwolf · Apr 14, 2019

Dannyalcatraz said:
No, I didn’t say that objects like that cannot be thrown accurately.

Yes, you did.

Dannyalcatraz said:
Not missing anything. Odds are extremely good that an object of that mass and those dimensions cannot be thrown with accuracy. As a freely moving weight, it is much harder to control than an identical weight constrained in a framework- see the difference between works out on free weights (dumbbells, kettle bells, etc.) as opposed to weight machines.

And going back to the Guinness throwing video, look at the person who was thrown. Did he look like he landed in a way conducive to success in melee?

(FWIW, I don’t really believe in “winning” internet discussions, so shelve that concept.)

Your argumentation habits in this thread suggest otherwise, to me, but I’ll give benefit of the doubt on intention.

Anyway, I’ve addressed the point you’ve raised here several times.

Dannyalcatraz · Apr 14, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
Yes, you did.

That was a reference to cabers, as was made obvious a little lower down in the quoted section:

Me
Not missing anything. Odds are extremely good that an object of that mass and those dimensions cannot be thrown with accuracy. As a freely moving weight, it is much harder to control than an identical weight constrained in a framework- see the difference between works out on free weights (dumbbells, kettle bells, etc.) as opposed to weight machines.

Change a caber’s construction to a denser material, and it becomes much easier to throw as it becomes more compact.

(Emphasis mine.)

And ballet dancers throw smaller ballet dancers without spotters, but more importantly, none of those things are tasks that dnd tries to model the risk of injury.

Yes they do, but they’re not throwing them for combat effectiveness, and the throws are only a couple of feet- nothing at all like the taekwondo demonstrators.

Damon_Tor · Apr 14, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
How do you determine distance? If giving a benefit commensurate with spending a second character’s action is part of one’s goal, how do you do so simply in this case?

However you would normally determine the distance of a long jump using an athletics roll with advantage.

The PHB and DMG are silent on how exactly to calculate the jump distance gained by an athletics roll except to say that you can "try to jump an unusually long distance" using the skill. 1d20+StrMod+ProficiencyBonus would be how it would be handled in previous editions, and I think it's reasonable to use that calculation here as well.

So it would be that, but with advantage from the guy doing the throw.

doctorbadwolf said:
I also prefer to have both characters make a roll, but only require 1 roll per participant, so I’d rather have the thrower be the one making the Athletics check, and use their strength score as the baseline. This provides an immediate benefit bc the thrower will almost certainly have a greater strength score.

Previous editions required a roll for using the "help" action. I don't see what that would really add in this context. You're making it very complicated.

doctorbadwolf said:
Lastly; I suggest adding 1d6 damage to a successful attack at the end per 10 ft thrown bc that feels more like something that is worth that second character’s action, but not enough to be better than the character taking the attack action most of the time, so it’s not an always better choice. You wouldn’t use it unless it’s to get an attack when you wouldn’t otherwise that round, get someone into a space they couldn’t reach alone, etc.

I could justify giving the attack roll advantage, as if the "help" action were assisting both the jump and the attack. Adding dice to the damage is just arbitrary.

doctorbadwolf · Apr 15, 2019

Dannyalcatraz said:
That was a reference to cabers, as was made obvious a little lower down in the quoted section:
Yes they do, but they’re not throwing them for combat effectiveness, and the throws are only a couple of feet- nothing at all like the taekwondo demonstrators.

Yeeeaaah, okay, man. You’re gonna keep finding any angle you can to view the possible as impossible, and aim just gonna go ahead and walk away from this exchange.

Damon_Tor said:
However you would normally determine the distance of a long jump using an athletics roll with advantage.

The PHB and DMG are silent on how exactly to calculate the jump distance gained by an athletics roll except to say that you can "try to jump an unusually long distance" using the skill. 1d20+StrMod+ProficiencyBonus would be how it would be handled in previous editions, and I think it's reasonable to use that calculation here as well.

So it would be that, but with advantage from the guy doing the throw.

I’d the thrower’s strength, but sure, otherwise that seems reasonable. I’d use that as a bonus to the distance, not as a number to set the total distance, but when playing, I wouldn’t object to either way.

Previous editions required a roll for using the "help" action. I don't see what that would really add in this context. You're making it very complicated.

hardly. 2 rolls, one to determine distance, and one from the thrown PC to attack or land accurately, is on the opposite end of the playing field from complicated.

I could justify giving the attack roll advantage, as if the "help" action were assisting both the jump and the attack. Adding dice to the damage is just arbitrary.

Again, hardly. It’s a damage bonus from being propelled at the target at high speed. I’d give the same for a successful falling attack. Advantage on the attack is more arbitrary, since it’s only justification is that “thats what the Help Action does”. This isn’t the Help Action.