Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 1 Failure and Story

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude. Is failure, even losing, possible, or is it not? Is it a game, or is it a storytelling session?

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude. Is failure, even losing, possible, or is it not? Is it a game, or is it a storytelling session?


Notice it’s “storytelling”, not storymaking. Every RPG involves a story, the question is, who creates the story, the GM or the players?

Inevitably, 40-some installments into this column, “Old School” would come up.

. . . role-playing games do not have plots. They have situations at the campaign, adventure, and encounter level which the players are free to interact with however they wish– as long as they accept the consequences!” - Jeffro Johnson (author of the book Appendix N)​

This will be in three (oversized) parts, because understanding of this topic is fundamental to discourse about what some of us (at least) call RPGs, and there’s too much for one or two columns (I tried). I think of a Quora question that asked what a GM can do when a player’s character does something insane or ludicrously inappropriate during a game. The answers varied widely depending on the goals of the answerer. The Old School answer is, “let the character suffer the consequences of the action”; but for those on the New School side, it was a much more complex problem, as the character’s actions would make it hard if not impossible for the GM to tell the story he had devised for the adventure.

Likely everyone reading this has seen and perhaps discussed the term “Old School” in connection with RPGs. When I started to reconnect with RPG fandom a few years ago, I wasn’t sure what “Old School” meant. There seem to be many definitions, but I now see the fundamental divide as not about rules. Rather, it’s about the attitude of the GM, and of the players, toward losing and failure. That’s at the root of Jeffro’s rant, though he puts it in terms of plot and story, which are closely related.

As I said, this is in three parts. The second will talk about rules, GMing, and pacing, and about non-RPGs reflecting the two schools. The third part will talk about differences in actual gameplay.

I’m not going to be “one true way” the way Jeffro is (“thieves must have d4 hit dice” is one of his rants). I write about RPGs as games, not as story-telling aids or playgrounds, but I am describing, not prescribing even as I obviously prefer the Old School. Let’s proceed.

If it’s a game (Old School (OS)), there’s a significant chance you can lose, you can fail. If it’s a story session, with no chance you can lose, it’s something else. This is like a co-operative board game that you cannot lose: why bother to play?

In terms of story, in OS the players write their own story, with the benefit of the GM’s assistance. The GM sets up a situation and lets the players get on with it. (This is sometimes called [FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]"[/FONT][/FONT]sandbox[FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]"[/FONT][/FONT] in video games, though video games tend to impose an overall story as a limitation of using computer programming instead of a human GM.) The other extreme is when the GM tells the players a story through the game. (In video games this is called a linear game, where the story always ends up the same way.)

If a GM is Old School and runs the same adventure for several different groups, the results will probably vary wildly. If the GM is at the other extreme, the overall shape of the adventure will be the same each time, with variance only in the details.

Old School adventures are usually highly co-operative, because the characters will DIE if they don’t cooperate. New School doesn’t require cooperation, you’re going to survive anyway.

Not surprisingly, as the hobby has grown, the proportion of wargamers (now a small hobby) has decreased drastically. Many players are not even hobby gamers, that is, they’re not quite “gamers” in the old sense because the only game they play is their RPG(s). Many people want their games to be stories, so the shift from Old School to something else is not surprising.

D&D 5e bears the marks of the newer playing methods, as there’s lots of healing as well as the ridiculous cleric spell revivify for mere fifth level clerics.

There are all kinds of shades of the two extremes, obviously. And all kinds of ways of running RPGs. Next time, I’ll talk about more differences between Old School and newer ways of playing such as Rules and Pacing, and compare with non-RPGs.

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. You can follow Lew on his web site and his Udemy course landing page. If you enjoy the daily news and articles from EN World, please consider contributing to our Patreon!
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
... which would never (?) happen in an Old School game.

Yeah, except, if Old School came first, then it had to happen for the first time in an Old School game, so ti had to happen sometime? As if we can guarantee it never does now? That's not a plausible suggestion. As already noted, Gygax himself was okay with it on rare occasion. How pure do we have to be?

Absolutes are for mathematicians. In gaming, someone who says "never" or "always" is very likely overstating the case.

Like this advocacy thing - stepping out of character-view and using story-view? That's a sometimes-thing, not an always-thing. Folks who want to paint things like night and day, mutually exclusive poles are oversimplifying. It is the *degree* to which you do that which we can quibble over.

And, as noted above - if the mechanics by their nature bring about the desired kind of story, you don't need to step out to make choices with great frequency.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Aldarc

Legend
Now consider the difference when that party, over its ten-adventure existence, has seen 35 characters pass through as members at some point due to perma-death and other types of turnover - and where none of those that started the saga were around at the end (this to me is very much OS); as opposed to if that party had mostly the same 5 characters all the way through (which to me says NS). The end-result stories of those two parties-as-entities, assuming all other things were roughly equal, ends up roughly the same. But in the first the story (or the party, same diff) was clearly bigger than any one character; not so much the case in the second.
You don't demonstrate that the story is not bigger than any one character in the second case. You merely point out the truism that 35 is a greater value than 5 and the same story content will inevitably be more thinly distributed between 35 than it would be for 5. And you do so in a manner that seems to aggrandize or artificially exaggerate the scope of the story for the former. So I still think that this notion that in OS gaming "the story is bigger than the characters" should be dropped in favor of more satisfactory and accurate explanations. And you seem to approach offering such an explanation: there is on average a higher PC turnover rate. If that is true, then examining that phenomenon would likely be more fruitful.

That said, you don't see that many groups in 5e having the sort of "ten-adventure existence" lifespan that you describe here. The loose connection of ten adventure modules (or DM plot hooks) isn't really the current mode of operation anymore. The 5e Tomb of Annihilation and Storm King's Thunder each take characters from 1-11. The Tyranny of Dragons (Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat) takes characters from 1-15. And overall there is not a gruelling grind to these higher levels anymore, and yet most games stop around levels 6-8. So part of the lower turnover rate seems to stem from these patterns alone. And this is obviously speaking only pertains to 5e compared to Early Gen 1 TTRPGs. We may expand the scope of inquiry to other RPGs and likely also find disparate patterns requiring independent explanations.

Also, to return to your much earlier point about GoT: There are a lot of deaths. (More so in the show where it pays to kill off characters since actors eat into the budget.) There are a lot of various PoV chapters. But the metaplot clearly favors certain characters over others. The story was clearly always meant to revolve around certain characters: e.g., Daenerys and Jon Snow. (Almost blatantly so.) And the various characters are not organized into any semblance of a party so it's not the best comparison for D&D on that front either. The death of Ned Stark is frequently cited as a case where people thought the story would center around him, but it turned out not to be the case. But GRRM had also intended that Book 1 would have encompassed what are now Books 1-3: Game of Thrones, Clash of Kings, Storm of Swords. So the death of Ned Stark was intended to be much "earlier" within the story's scope - a third of the way into Book 1. And I think that this also illustrates that for GRRM, the characters were much bigger than the story he planned rather than the story being bigger than the characters.

This one always red-flags to me as a bad (or at least very inexperienced) DM warning, in that if a game or story is built around a certain character then a) that character is inevitably going to be treated with favouritism and-or b) things have real potential to go sideways should that character perma-die or otherwise leave the party.
This seems more an indication of personal preference than a "bad DM," an accusation that honestly gets thrown around too liberally on this forum at times. Though it is not my own preference either, I have personally seen this work to great success.

I often get a sense - particularly from the story-now crew* - that the real interest lies in the stories of individual characters, with the story of the party as a whole merely tagging along for the ride.

* - though I suppose these could almost be defined as post-NS.
It seems like one of the "story-now crew," such as [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION], [MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION], or [MENTION=1282]darkbard[/MENTION] would be better equipped to elucidate clarification on such matters then, if you are so inclined.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
People make self-less sacrifices all the time, in real life, so that's not un-realistic or anything. But they make sacrifices for things that matter to them, like the well-being of others, or principles like honor. As mentioned much earlier in this thread, death isn't the worst thing that can happen to a character, so making a sacrifice for the greater good can still be acting in your own best interest.

One of the big differences with NS games, and with FATE in particular, is that they ask the player to make decisions against the character's interests. They want the wizard's brother to die, not because it's what the character would want in any capacity, or even because it's a necessary sacrifice for the greater good that they believe in, but because it's more dramatic and narratively satisfying for the players at the table.

I've never played, FATE so I'm not familiar with how that works. But just at the basic idea, don't we make such decisions for PCs in most games? Perhaps these decisions are not made in play, but only prior to play as part of the character's backstory.

And as for the player deciding that the character's brother is dead for narrative purposes, I don't really see the conflict because this is not a decision the character would have to make. Unless you're talking about some in game action where the character could save the brother, but the player decides that he won't.

It's kind of hard to describe, but I'll try.

The difference between being the character and advocating for the character is a fundamental distinction in how the decisions are made. It's a different process, by which information is analyzed and weighed. From what I understand, it uses different parts of the brain, though I can't offer more specificity on that point. When you are the character, you actually imagine yourself to be in that situation, in order to find out how you would respond. You imagine the musty corridor, and the crazed zombie, and your mighty thews, and the sword in your hand; and whatever your brain kicks back for what you should do in that situation, that's what you do - that's what you say your character tries to do.

I'm not an expert on NS gameplay, but that's not the process I understand from reading the FATE Core book. What they describe is more a system of collaboratively story-telling, where you identify with your character but not as your character. It's like you're one of four writers, working on a novel or a something, and you're debating how the story should unfold. You are advocating for your character, in that you want them to be memorable and do cool things, but you don't really stop to imagine yourself in the situation before letting them do anything. You maintain your position as an outsider, even while you're making decisions for the character.

I feel like immersion is possible regardless of mechanics. After all, we can all become immersed in any number of stories told in a variety of media. Obviously, different game mechanics will click as immersive for some folks and not for others. But I don't think I'd say that any playstyle is objectively more immersive.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I often get a sense - particularly from the story-now crew* - that the real interest lies in the stories of individual characters, with the story of the party as a whole merely tagging along for the ride.

You say this as if the story of the group isn't *made up* of the stories of the individuals.

You've seen Star Trek: The Next Generation, or any other Star Trek series, yes? In the opening, they tell you: "These are the stories of the Starship Enterprise...". But each particular episode is a mixture and interweaving of A and B plots that focus on different characters. And yeah, sometimes you lose a character (Lieutenant Yar, or Dr. Crusher for a while), but the story of the ship goes on.

Yes, if you make it so a single character always has the A plot, you can have a major problem if that character dies. But if you hand around that focus, and generally work so that the A-plots have multiple characters involved, no one character becomes indispensable.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
Yeah, except, if Old School came first, then it had to happen for the first time in an Old School game, so ti had to happen sometime? As if we can guarantee it never does now? That's not a plausible suggestion. As already noted, Gygax himself was okay with it on rare occasion. How pure do we have to be?

Absolutes are for mathematicians. In gaming, someone who says "never" or "always" is very likely overstating the case.

Like this advocacy thing - stepping out of character-view and using story-view? That's a sometimes-thing, not an always-thing. Folks who want to paint things like night and day, mutually exclusive poles are oversimplifying. It is the *degree* to which you do that which we can quibble over.

And, as noted above - if the mechanics by their nature bring about the desired kind of story, you don't need to step out to make choices with great frequency.

Yes, I agree about absolutes....my comments were made in reply to another poster with the intention of summarizing what I was getting from their post (hence my use of question marks), not as a summation of how I view things. Of course players in AD&D made decisions for their characters based on story, and new school gamers make decisions based on their characters.

But I can see the distinction between trying to always remain in character, and in trying to play with a mind for what's dramatically satisfying...and despite the fact that both can be done in any play style, I can see how one might ascribe the former to Old School and the latter to New School. Would you agree with that? None of the terms or definitions we're using are perfect, so a little leeway seems to be in order for the sake of discussion.

I have no desire to paint anything as night and day. I enjoy elements of gaming that would be called Old School, and also plenty of modern mechanics or games that would be called New School. I don't feel the need to pick one over the other, and as I've said, I disagree with the conclusions from the OP in regards to loss and failure.
 

As is often the case with these kinds of articles, this is a just-so story where because "old school" is seen as desirable and "nü-style" is seen as sold out and sucky, therefore, I'm going to write an article where the playstyle that I prefer is redefined as old school so that I can be validated that my game must not be sold out and sucky.

In reality, of course, all kinds of axes can be equally validly claimed to be the difference between old school and new school. I could just as easily make the case that the difference is DM rulings vs. rules heavy and codified games, and AD&D was a sharp divide from D&D that came before and the start of new school. And then I could come up with a cute and passive-aggressive disparaging name like "storygames" or whatever to describe people who require all that codified rule bloat to hold their hands through running the game. Or I could make the axis be homebrewing vs. published settings.

Curiously, the divide for all of them happens in the early 80s, which by any objective measure is still "old" especially considering that that's when most people came into the game because it was at its peak of faddish popularity.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
But I can see the distinction between trying to always remain in character, and in trying to play with a mind for what's dramatically satisfying...and despite the fact that both can be done in any play style, I can see how one might ascribe the former to Old School and the latter to New School. Would you agree with that? None of the terms or definitions we're using are perfect, so a little leeway seems to be in order for the sake of discussion.

Eh? I mean, it is *very* good to put it as, "...play with a mind to...". I am just not sure if that distinction is the central divide, in practice.

From what I have seen in discussion, the more basic thrust to Old School is about the *risk*, and challenge - often leaning heavily on the tactical wargame aspects of the game. It leads (to use other people's terms, perhaps imperfectly) to "Combat as War" approaches (rather than "Combat as Sport"). And that leads to strong desire to use the rules to best effectiveness, and more consideration of the character as a playing piece than as a role to be in.

End result - my New School games usually have players more in-character than my Old School games. YMMV.

I have no desire to paint anything as night and day.

Aside: Unfortunately, the internet, as an environment, tends to drive discussions to poles, even if we don't actively desire it, in part because of just this sort of thing - slight restatements, each presenting the other's position as more absolute than it really is, until those Old School people *never* do a thing, and the New School *always* do a thing. It is something folks have to not just "not desire", but must more actively adjust their conversation to avoid.

That's why I like your phrasing of "play with a mind to". The findamental acts of play in both schools simply aren't all that different. They have different leanings, but often not fundamentally different operations.
 

I've never played, FATE so I'm not familiar with how that works. But just at the basic idea, don't we make such decisions for PCs in most games? Perhaps these decisions are not made in play, but only prior to play as part of the character's backstory.
I draw a distinction between what happens during the game, and what happens prior to the game. Making an analogy to movies, character backstory is part of the premise, and you have to buy into the premise before you decide to watch the movie in the first place. The movie itself (or game, as the case may be), is about how that premise plays out. If you go to watch a Superman movie (for example), then it's unfair to criticize the idea of human-looking aliens who come to Earth and have superpowers, but it's perfectly fair to criticize if those powers act inconsistently between scenes. Likewise, if I'm choosing to play an elven wizard whose brother died under tragic circumstances, then that's just the premise, and it doesn't affect how any choices made after the game actually starts.

FATE would definitely bribe you into letting your brother die during play in order to make the story more dramatic, though. There are a few different ways that you could model that relationship, but at least one of the ways would make you choose between saving your brother and gaining a Fate point, where Fate points run the resource economy that matters during boss fights.

I feel like immersion is possible regardless of mechanics. After all, we can all become immersed in any number of stories told in a variety of media. Obviously, different game mechanics will click as immersive for some folks and not for others. But I don't think I'd say that any playstyle is objectively more immersive.
I feel like immersion is possible regardless of mechanics. After all, we can all become immersed in any number of stories told in a variety of media. Obviously, different game mechanics will click as immersive for some folks and not for others. But I don't think I'd say that any playstyle is objectively more immersive.
I'll buy that you can be immersed in a story-game character in the same way that you can be immersed in a novel or movie character, but it's fundamentally a different type of immersion from actually pretending to be that person. Maybe it's not so different, for some people; and I'm sure that some people actually prefer the former over the latter; but I have zero interest in playing the former type of game.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
FATE would definitely bribe you into letting your brother die during play in order to make the story more dramatic, though.

Um, probably not. Yes, in FATE the GM sometimes asks the player to accept complications, in exchange for a Fate chip. However, that chip is typically worth +2 on a single die roll - having someone significant *DIE* in exchange for one +2? That's a theoretical thing, but a boogeyman in practice.

Especially because you are supposed to offer a *complication*, something that makes life more difficult (read, something that will occasionally impact a die roll, introduce another antagonist, stand as a barrier you have to surmount, or the like). "My brother died," is either not of that nature, or is outsized for the purpose - throwing a PC into a funk that takes real people months to get out of is more than a +2 is worth.

It is also incorrect to say that accepting this bribe is "against the character's interests", because the chip economy drives the PC's ability to do awesome things. Used as intended, in the end the chip is worth more than the complication. It *sounds* against your interests in the short run, but really pays off in the end.
 

Especially because you are supposed to offer a *complication*, something that makes life more difficult (read, something that will occasionally impact a die roll, introduce another antagonist, stand as a barrier you have to surmount, or the like). "My brother died," is either not of that nature, or is outsized for the purpose - throwing a PC into a funk that takes real people months to get out of is more than a +2 is worth.
Like I said, there are different ways that you could model it, depending on the nature of their relationship. The system is flexible like that. But if you're willing to buy that the character might get thrown into a months-long funk, and presumably you could accept that he didn't care about his brother at all and isn't impacted whatsoever by the death, then hopefully you could accept that there's some level of caring that would count as a Complication.

It is also incorrect to say that accepting this bribe is "against the character's interests", because the chip economy drives the PC's ability to do awesome things. Used as intended, in the end the chip is worth more than the complication. It *sounds* against your interests in the short run, but really pays off in the end.
The example in the book is of a thief being Compelled to steal jewelry. Doing so is very clearly against the character's interests, because they're likely to get caught and cause trouble, and everyone knows it. The player is being bribed in order to do it anyway.

The argument in the book is that you should let this sort of thing happen, because it will be fun and dramatic, even though (realistically) the character knows that it's a bad idea and they shouldn't do it. You get a mechanical benefit in order to accept drama, because they know that there's no reason why you would commit such foolish mistakes unless you had sufficient incentives. Maybe you could argue that it actually is in their best interest, because they need the Fate point, but that's an entirely out-of-character meta-game reason that can't possibly play into their decision-making process.

At the very least, I hope that clearly demonstrates the difference between playing as the character and advocating for the character. When you're advocating, you're supposed to meta-game.
 

Related Articles

Remove ads

Remove ads

Top