D&D 5E Berserker - How does it really compare to Totem Warrior?

The_Furious_Puffin · May 4, 2016

Retaliation is a great feature but it arrives at level 14, I doubt most players are ever going to see it and even then it has a lot of work to do. If Frenzy is naff (and under your assumptions, it's amazingly terrible, resulting in an average 15 damage over an adventuring day which is real bad), a wolf barbarian is getting something like ~600 extra hits out of of their level 3 feature (assuming 1.5 melee allies who have some way of attacking with bonus actions) for the party by the time retaliation arrives at level 14.

Making some crude calculations about the value of a hit, we're saying that that the Bezerker's level 6 feature is worth ~10-15 damage a round. If you don't think that the melee allies will have bonus action attacks, it's more like 5-10. If your party is bigger though, this gets tons more valuable. At my table with a paladin, two fighters and a barbarian this is obviously Value (TM).

I just don't see that as remotely plausible, most combats don't even have a relevant effect in them.

Note that the wolf guy isn't directly cranking his own DPR so it's not going to feel like he is going yooge every battle, but every time he helps lands a hit/crit (my damage analysis above isn't including crits, though it's a bit tough) he's helping a lot. Advantage is really good for melee multiattackers and giving a consistent form of advantage is great.

Lillika · May 4, 2016

Like I said its party dependent, if you read my other post on this thread, you would know that I feel that wolf is better in a melee heavy party. I have been in some parties where the only melee is a sword and shield tank.

RulesJD · May 4, 2016

Again, please read my post.

~4.3 average across the d20 spectrum. When adjusted that 1s are auto-fails and 20s are auto-succeeds, the value of Advantage/Disadvantage is ~+-5 when doing to-hit rolls (no auto fail/succeed at saves/ability checks). Again, you're arguing with math here, not me. It's not a bad thing to admit you're wrong and learned something new, I do it quite often.

Next, there is a VERY IMPORTANT addition that people are missing. The 2nd best feature of being a barbarian is heavily in favor of the Totem Barbarian, specifically Bear.

Everyone agrees that a Bear Barbarian is going to outlast any other barbarian significantly, especially a Frenzy barb after an exhaustion level or two.

That means a Bear barb is going to be using Reckless Attack significantly more often, especially against enemies with non-BPS damage riders (aka most over CR10), like poison. Reckless Attack = biggest DPR boost in the game when combo'd with GWM. So the damage numbers (especially with PAM) skew even more heavily towards to the Bear barb when you factor that they'll be using Reckless significantly more often due to their ability to last longer before 0hp.

DaveDash · May 4, 2016

RulesJD said:
Again, please read my post.

~4.3 average across the d20 spectrum. When adjusted that 1s are auto-fails and 20s are auto-succeeds, the value of Advantage/Disadvantage is ~+-5 when doing to-hit rolls (no auto fail/succeed at saves/ability checks). Again, you're arguing with math here, not me. It's not a bad thing to admit you're wrong and learned something new, I do it quite often.

Next, there is a VERY IMPORTANT addition that people are missing. The 2nd best feature of being a barbarian is heavily in favor of the Totem Barbarian, specifically Bear.

Everyone agrees that a Bear Barbarian is going to outlast any other barbarian significantly, especially a Frenzy barb after an exhaustion level or two.

That means a Bear barb is going to be using Reckless Attack significantly more often, especially against enemies with non-BPS damage riders (aka most over CR10), like poison. Reckless Attack = biggest DPR boost in the game when combo'd with GWM. So the damage numbers (especially with PAM) skew even more heavily towards to the Bear barb when you factor that they'll be using Reckless significantly more often due to their ability to last longer before 0hp.

The extra damage for that one BBEG fight is far more important IMO than the extra resistance that Bear Totem gives you.

That extra attack when the Barbarian has frenzied has literally saved us in some really tight situations - an extra ~15 damage or so per round is an extra 45 damage or so per combat. That extra damage output has taken down Dragons, enemy casters, etc at critical moments of a fight and has been instrumental to our parties survival.
Meanwhile in our entire campaign there has been only one time the Berserker Barbarian has come close to death - meaning that 'outlasting' component of the Bear Totem Barbarian is great on paper, but not necessarily great in game. It wouldn't have been a critical factor in our campaign thus far at all, whereas the extra attack has been.
For example, when the enemy Wizard casts fireball on the group, it's not the party barbarian that is in trouble, regardless of whether he takes half or full damage from resistances. It's the other party members that are in dire straights, and thus it becomes MUCH more useful to kill that enemy Wizard ASAP than have more lasting power.

Also Fear and Charm are so common in game. Good luck doing anything as a Totem Barbarian when you can't even get into melee range because of fear.

In our game (Tyranny of Dragons) the Berserker has been the superior choice, especially fighting Dragons. Cast fly on him, let him frenzy, and let him loose.

CapnZapp · May 4, 2016

ChrisCarlson said:
So you want the berzerker to take a feat that is less useful to them than it would be for the totem guy

I have never said this.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

The only arguments you discuss are the straw men you set up yourself.

When you change that, and start analyzing the real choices instead of attacking the person, I'll get back to you.

CapnZapp · May 4, 2016

Dausuul said:
This is like comparing the combat effectiveness of the bladelock and the eldritch blast warlock, while insisting that they have to use the same set of invocations. So you're allowed to compare:

Bladelock to EB warlock, both with Agonizing Blast

Bladelock to EB warlock, both with Thirsting Blade

Bladelock to EB warlock, with no invocations at all

But you are not allowed to compare:

Bladelock with Thirsting Blade to EB warlock with Agonizing Blast

Which is ridiculous, because that last one is the only one that compares actual optimized builds, which is the only thing that matters for balance. Obviously an optimized warlock will beat an unoptimized one, and if neither warlock is optimized, who cares?

Again somebody putting words in my mouth.

The only ridiculous scenario in your post is the example YOU provided.

CapnZapp · May 4, 2016

Arial Black said:
It's a fair point that berserkers and totem warriors will be built differently and take different feats.

But when you are thinking about your barbarian and have decided that you are going to use your bonus action to get another attack, you have various mutually exclusive ways (because you only get one bonus action per round) to get that extra bonus action attack:-

* be a berserker and get Frenzy
* use light weapons and TWF (or 1H weapons and Dual wielder)
* get PAM and get a bonus action attack that deals 1d4
* get GWM and hope you get a lot of crits and killing blows

Each way has advantages and disadvantages. The Frenzy route doesn't cost a feat but does prevent whatever 3rd level totem ability you would have chosen, for example. TWF makes you use light weapons but doesn't cost a feat, or does cost a feat but limits you to 1H weapons. PAM forces you to use one of three weapon types, restricting your opportunities to find a magic version. GWM lets you use whatever 2H or versatile weapon you want, but you only get the bonus attack sometimes.

But actually using that bonus action attack doesn't hurt you...unless you are using Frenzy! For some reason this attack punishes you so harshly that it takes a 5th level spell to take away one level of the punishment, but the punishment accumulates.

This is a valid concern when deciding which route you are going to take to get that bonus action attack!

This drawback far outweighs any of the drawbacks that apply to the other ways to get that bonus action attack. That's why Frenzy is so reviled and avoided.

This.

Lots of you scramble to prove how the Berserker can too do damage.

Only problem is, nobody's contesting this!

The Berserker problems are instead the huge cost:
1) you get no totems
2) you cannot fully use feats (like GWM or PM, since your bonus action is already overcrowded)
3) you gain frikkin Exhaustion

And please don't start on "but only use Frenzy when you need to".

If there ever was an argument AGAINST a feature it is when its protractors argue to NOT use it.

Look: in a game without feats, or perhaps in a game where you have a much stronger say when and where Exhaustion appears, go ahead and Berzerk your socks off.

Or, when you're less concerned with optimization and simply WANT to play a Berserker, sure go ahead.

But everyone else is choosing Totem barb for a reason.

CapnZapp · May 4, 2016

Lillika said:
There is really no reason to take different feats for the Berserker as you do for the Totem Warrior. I think this is the big mistake that a lot of people make.

That's what I have been saying all along.

Any comparison needs to start with just changing one thing, and then working out from there.

The_Furious_Puffin · May 4, 2016

[MENTION=6786202]DaveDash[/MENTION] how do you get to 15 a round? Any totem barbarian is going to have TWF or Pole arm master to get bins attacks so the difference is d4 vs 2d6 which is 4.5 damage (slightly more because of the reroll feature k GWM which you obviously have) but you hit 65% or so so it's about 4.5

I don't get to 15.

CapnZapp · May 4, 2016

The_Furious_Puffin said:
Whoops

Whee!

D&D 5E Berserker - How does it really compare to Totem Warrior?

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Lillika

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CapnZapp

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