D&D 5E Berserker - How does it really compare to Totem Warrior?

[RulesJD]

What an odd assertion to make. Are you sure? Clearly you do not have me on ignore, because you can see and respond to me. So I'm not sure how you've missed all my posts in this thread.


I believe you may not fully grasp the debate as it stands. Because, lose how, exactly? And what parameters are you using to establish this opinion of yours in the first place? Your claims are unsupported and ephemeral.

Because you clearly struggle with reading comprehension:

I realize that people have various preferred role-playing styles, and value different non-mechanical aspects of characters. This isn't a thread about that. This is intended to be a thread about raw, by the book, standard assumptions, subclass effectiveness comparisons.

Since you also fail as basic math, the average benefit of Advantage/Disadvantage across the D20 spectrum is ~4.3. It changes with what number you need to roll to succeed, but a 10/11 is taken as the average. Simplified (and per PHB impact on passives, taking into account auto-misses/auto-hits on 1s and 20s) it comes out to around +-5. You literally are arguing with mathematics, yet another argument you are going to lose.

You have not, to my quick search through a few pages, posted a single Frenzy barbarian build. So, post one, or accept the fact that you're wrong about the effectiveness of a Frenzy barbarian versus a Totem barbarian, which is (and I'm repeating both myself and the OP here) the literal point of this entire thread.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

Since you also fail as basic math, the average benefit of Advantage/Disadvantage across the D20 spectrum is ~4.3. It changes with what number you need to roll to succeed, but a 10/11 is taken as the average. Simplified (and per PHB impact on passives, taking into account auto-misses/auto-hits on 1s and 20s) it comes out to around +-5. You literally are arguing with mathematics, yet another argument you are going to lose.

I just wanted to point out that the basic math I know does not round ~4.3 into +/-5.

 

[Lillika]

Looking back at the discussion. The OP's original comparison with Wolf Totem choice at lvl 3, versus Frenzy. This is before all the other stuff got added in.

I propose that the Berserker build that compares with a Totem Warrior Build is the exact same build that the Totem Warrior takes. The assumption is Polearm Master will be the feat. The second assumption will be that Frenzy is only used when either the party is in real bad shape, or it is highly expected to be the day's last fight.

The OP made a claim that the lvl 6, 10, and 14 abilities were roughly equivalent. This is the claim that I challenge. I will do this from a DPS perspective mostly, so there will be some bias. At lvl 6, the Berserker gets Mindless Rage which is a DPS increase any time attacks would be loss due to fear or charm. So lvl 6 advantage Berserker. Lvl 10 both are no dps increase. Lvl 14 is a good dps increase for Berserker and if Wolf was chosen at lvl 3 then prone will not be a dps increase at lvl 14 for the Totem Barbarian. Advantage Berserker at lvl 14.

Ok now looking back at lvl 3. If bear is chosen, this will only be a dps increase if this reduction in damage results in the barbarian not being knocked to 0 health, and their turn passing before becoming healed. If Wolf is chosen, this could be a decent amount of damage, roughly 1/5 of the average damage of each person benefiting, because it only helps on hits that would have missed, but now hit because of the advantage given. I really really like the Wolf ability at lvl 3 btw. Now the Berserker gets Frenzy, this if used only very moderately is a dps increase, but a small one.

So the question is, does the dps increase from Wolf at lvl 3 (or bear) match the small dps increase from Frenzy, Mindless Rage, and Retaliation. In my opinion it depends on the party, in a melee heavy party, the Totem Barbarian will probably contribute to more damage done. Otherwise I would give the edge to the Berserker.

Edit: Actually the Wolf Totem ability at lvl 14 is a dps increase for the Barbarian on attacks after the first one hits, but also a dps loss for any ranged attackers. This will fluctuate on the party make up.

 

[Umbran]

Because you clearly struggle with reading comprehension:
...
Since you also fail as basic math

And, do we want to go into how you're doing in basic politeness and civility?

How about we not, and just up our game there. Show respect for others, even when you disagree, please.

 

[Arial Black]

It's a fair point that berserkers and totem warriors will be built differently and take different feats.

But when you are thinking about your barbarian and have decided that you are going to use your bonus action to get another attack, you have various mutually exclusive ways (because you only get one bonus action per round) to get that extra bonus action attack:-

* be a berserker and get Frenzy
* use light weapons and TWF (or 1H weapons and Dual wielder)
* get PAM and get a bonus action attack that deals 1d4
* get GWM and hope you get a lot of crits and killing blows

Each way has advantages and disadvantages. The Frenzy route doesn't cost a feat but does prevent whatever 3rd level totem ability you would have chosen, for example. TWF makes you use light weapons but doesn't cost a feat, or does cost a feat but limits you to 1H weapons. PAM forces you to use one of three weapon types, restricting your opportunities to find a magic version. GWM lets you use whatever 2H or versatile weapon you want, but you only get the bonus attack sometimes.

But actually using that bonus action attack doesn't hurt you...unless you are using Frenzy! For some reason this attack punishes you so harshly that it takes a 5th level spell to take away one level of the punishment, but the punishment accumulates.

This is a valid concern when deciding which route you are going to take to get that bonus action attack!

This drawback far outweighs any of the drawbacks that apply to the other ways to get that bonus action attack. That's why Frenzy is so reviled and avoided.

 

[The_Furious_Puffin]

It's also totally critical to being an effective melee fighter in 5E to consistently use your bonus action to attack. Every Bezerker is going to need to take one of those other approaches because you need it in the other 3-6 fights every day you don't use Frenzy!

It's a one-two punch

* Exhaustion is a real kick in the teeth
* You need to have another bonus action attack source anyway, so it's not like Frenzy replaces the need to take great weapon master!

Basically with a Totem warrior you're looking at Polearm Master + Wolf/Bear Totem vs Frenzy + Great Weapon Master. The completely dumb thing about that is, say you use Frenzy correctly 2.5 fights every adventuring day, and the adventuring day has an average of 7 fights (mid point of the 6-8 balance threshold). Fight duration 4 rounds as per assumptions.

So let's JUST look at bonus attacks because that's really what's this is about. In a typical day the Bezerker gets:

10 bonus attacks from Bezerk + 1 from critting with GWM plus 4 from dropping people. Total of 15, and each one does 3 damage mroe than a bonus attack from Polearm Master.

This nets you 30-45 damage over Polearm master for those 18 bonus attacks because a bigger dice and rerolling on those dice. Nice.

Polearm Master on the other hand, makes a bonus attack every round PLUS gets the triggered bonus attacks. That's 28 to start with, but we get the bonus attacks as a reaction! This is yooge, and is probably worth approximately another 14 bonus attacks over the course of a day.

So that's 24 attacks that the that the Bezerker doesn't get. 10 are d4+stat and 14 are full weapon damage. This is easily going to give more damage than the Bezerker's.

Now, that damage is more spread out and harder to dump into the BBEG - but over a 6-8 encounter day, constant DPR matters more than a big nova and that's not even considering the totem power!

 

[Lillika]

There is really no reason to take different feats for the Berserker as you do for the Totem Warrior. I think this is the big mistake that a lot of people make. Considering you are only going to be using Frenzy for a short period of time. I myself think the optimal build is probably Polearm Master and GWM for both builds (depending on the party). Basically for the 3-6 fights without frenzy you are using your bonus attack with Polearm Master, when you frenzy you just use the extra damage from the polearm (or you drop the polearm and draw you 2-hander that you are carrying on your back).

 

[The_Furious_Puffin]

Then you're paying a class feature AND exhaustion levels to increase your bonus attack damage from d4 to 2d6. Both get stat mods, so that's 5 damage * 65% (average hit rate below level 10) * ~10 rounds a day, assuming you don't drop or critical anyone in those rounds.

So you're getting what, 32 damage + exhaustion levels from Frenzy, less in reality, compared to wolf Totem which if you have just one other melee dude in your party is worth something like 84 damage in a worst case scenario.

Bezerker is really, really terrible if you have Polearm master. The problem is Polearm master is very possibly the best feat for Melee weapon users in the game.

 

[The_Furious_Puffin]

Whoops

 

[Lillika]

Then you're paying a class feature AND exhaustion levels to increase your bonus attack damage from d4 to 2d6. Both get stat mods, so that's 5 damage * 65% (average hit rate below level 10) * ~10 rounds a day, assuming you don't drop or critical anyone in those rounds.

So you're getting what, 32 damage + exhaustion levels from Frenzy, less in reality, compared to wolf Totem which if you have just one other melee dude in your party is worth something like 84 damage in a worst case scenario.

Bezerker is really, really terrible if you have Polearm master. The problem is Polearm master is very possibly the best feat for Melee weapon users in the game.

Frenzy really isn't the awesome feature of the Berserker. As has been shown on several post Polearm Master is very good. My previous threads have shown that when both the Berserker and Totem Warrior take Polearm Master, they are both very comparable to each other.

If used on average once per day (on what looks to be the last big fight, or when its really bad) Frenzy will only be used about 10%-20% of the time. That means 80%-90% of the time the Berserker will not be in Frenzy. Why would a Berserker not take Polearm Master if it is that good. Basically it comes down to this, if the Berserker takes Polearm Master they are comparable to the Totem Warrior (depending on the party makeup, more or less damage). If the Berserker doesn't take Polearm master, they do less damage than the Totem Warrior.

Yes I am well aware that the bonus attack from Polearm Master will not be used during Frenzy, and that Frenzy will have a very little damage increase over Polearm Master. But also remember that it is probably the lvl 6 and 14 abilities that make the Berserker so good, and Frenzy is just the fun icing.