D&D 5E Do you care about setting "canon"?

Status
Not open for further replies.

pemerton

Legend
They copied DC.
This particular line of discussion is getting more and more strange.

T&T also "copied" D&D (as per the account from Ken St Andre that I posted upthread. Another word for "copying" here is "inspired by", or even thinking that one could do it better (as St Andre thought he could).

But PF isn't copying D&D; nor inspired by it. It's a game that uses the D&D chassis under a direct licence (the OGL) from WotC. It's a D&D variant with some new stuff on the lists and some variant rules for classes. PF is as different from D&D as an AD&D table using the variant monk from Dragon rather than the official version (ie not different at all!).
 

log in or register to remove this ad

pemerton

Legend
The multiverse was a feature of AD&D when I started playing it c1980, the PH (1978) had the rectangular version of the Great Wheel diagram, and, IIRC, referenced the infinite parallels of the prime material or words to that effect.
But it was never asserted that every campaign world was part of the same fiction as every other. As I posted in response to [MENTION=37579]Jester David[/MENTION], it was a conceit for world building (new vistas for PCs to explore) and for moving PCs from campaign to campaign.

But Blackmoor and Greyhawk (just to give two examples chosen at random!) weren't parallel primes in the same multiverse! Rather, GH includes a "tribute" to Arneson's Blackmoor in the form of a northern realm of that name. It seems that there was a greater willingness in those earlier times to acknowledge that these gameworlds were creations for RPGing in, and that whether or not they were taken to be connected in the fiction was a question to be answered by reference to gameplay needs.

The idea of a canonical multiverse where every setting must coexist comes later - as I said, MotP is the first sign because it treats all the DDG pantheons as co-existing in the fiction, rather than as alternatives from which a GM might choose as part of a process of creating a gameworld.

The Warden was launched from the future Earth that became Gamma World.
Sure, but this just raises another version of the same question. Can one play Metamorphis Alpha without Gamma World (eg the earth itself is destroyed?) - I think so. Can one play Gamma World without Metamorphis Alpha (ie there is no gigantic starship that was launched from the earth)? Again, I think so.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Both of us can't be right about those points, if we're reading the same information. Upthread, [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] mentioned that a lot of these elements of my character were from later revisions to DL lore, not from the original lore he was familiar with (maybe Raistlin was a character introduced after the original book series?). I've no reason to contradict him on that.
With the possible exception of Sturm and Tasslehoff, you really can't much more of an iconic Dragonlance character than Raistlin. A Greygem-influenced gnome certainly fits into Dragonlance quite easily, unless you're only considering the original modules and the big 6 novels as the "real" Dragonlance.
 

pemerton

Legend
It's not like that reading came ex nihilo. It came because of what was actually written in the setting books and lore websites for the setting.

<snip>

Hussar read different books, different lore (from what I'm to understand, no wild sorcery, for one) so he came to a different conclusion about what DL expected from its heroes.
Again, I think you are focusing on a subordinate element of the situation. I'm pretty confident that [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] could have read all the stuff you did and not have a different view. The issue between you is one of theme, not one of content.

part of this DM's schtick is that he's drawing a direct parallel between each of the current party and one of the original Heroes of the Lance. I'm pretty ignorant of the original stories, but it turns out my gnome wild mage fits the "Raistlin Majere" model of Hero

<snip>

the material I'm looking at shows explicitly that there are DL heroes who don't think the gods are hot shakes (Raistlin)
Hussar has clearly read the key Raistlin stories (the first two trilogies). But I strongly suspect that [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] thinks of Raistlin as a villain, not a hero - that his turn to the black robes (ie evil) and his attempt to replace the gods as ruler of Krynn is not a heroic goal.

If the only magic was through the Tower of High Sorcery and there was never wild sorcery, I wouldn't be a wild sorcerer. If the Greygem didn't make the gnomes, I might not think of that as an important facet of the character. If every tinker gnome had to build a rube goldberg device, I might've done that! If the lore didn't explicitly allow for the kind of character I'm playing, I would be playing a different character!
I think this is missing the point.

Hussar has not said there are no mages outside the ToHS (there are renegade wizards) - he's said that ToHS is what is paradigmatic or distinctively authentic about DL. By making your character a gnome who is not a tinker you avoid exemplifying what is distinctive about DL gnomes. By being a non-ToHS wizard you avoid exemplifying what is distinctive about DL magic. And by opposing the gods you exemplify a trait of (what I think Hussar would take to be) a key villain (Raistlin), who only redeemed himself by abandoning his plan to oppose and destroy the gods.

This is not a difference of opinion about what DL permits. It's a difference of opinion about what DL, at its core, is.

Both of us can't be right about those points, if we're reading the same information. Upthread, [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] mentioned that a lot of these elements of my character were from later revisions to DL lore, not from the original lore he was familiar with (maybe Raistlin was a character introduced after the original book series?). I've no reason to contradict him on that.
Raistlin is one of the most important characters in the first two trilogies. Hussar has read those books. He knows about Raistlin.

Your difference of opinion is one of interpretation/thematic reading, not of facts. The commentator on Tom Sawyer and I have both read the same Mark Twain book. We've both read the same story about Tom getting his friends to help him whitewash the fence. What we disagree about is what it means in thematic terms.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
To be fully idiomatic Champions, wouldn't it have to e be 6d6 stun damage or 6d6 body damage? As opposed to 6d6 hp damage.

"6d6" or "6d6 damage" is all that is typically said of fireball in D&D, even though it does fire damage, so what sort of damage it does in Champions would be similarly be left out of the statement. Those playing the game know the type and don't have to state it. The same "I hit him with a fireball doing 6d6" works for both game.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
But PF isn't copying D&D; nor inspired by it. It's a game that uses the D&D chassis under a direct licence (the OGL) from WotC. It's a D&D variant with some new stuff on the lists and some variant rules for classes. PF is as different from D&D as an AD&D table using the variant monk from Dragon rather than the official version (ie not different at all!).
It's as different from D&D as The Wheel of Time is. i.e. not D&D, but a different game that uses the d20 system. The d20 system =/= D&D.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Hussar has clearly read the key Raistlin stories (the first two trilogies). But I strongly suspect that @Hussar thinks of Raistlin as a villain, not a hero - that his turn to the black robes (ie evil) and his attempt to replace the gods as ruler of Krynn is not a heroic goal.

He helped save the world and bring back the gods. He was a hero for that. That he became a fallen hero doesn't change the fact that he was still a hero for a lot of what he did.

I think this is missing the point.

Hussar has not said there are no mages outside the ToHS (there are renegade wizards) - he's said that ToHS is what is paradigmatic or distinctively authentic about DL. By making your character a gnome who is not a tinker you avoid exemplifying what is distinctive about DL gnomes. By being a non-ToHS wizard you avoid exemplifying what is distinctive about DL magic. And by opposing the gods you exemplify a trait of (what I think Hussar would take to be) a key villain (Raistlin), who only redeemed himself by abandoning his plan to oppose and destroy the gods.

This is not a difference of opinion about what DL permits. It's a difference of opinion about what DL, at its core, is.

However, by making his character a wild mage he succeeds in exemplifying what is distinct about DL magic due to the Greygem and The Chaos War. Those two events are also distinctively DL, so his gnome character is authentic DL.

Your difference of opinion is one of interpretation/thematic reading, not of facts. The commentator on Tom Sawyer and I have both read the same Mark Twain book. We've both read the same story about Tom getting his friends to help him whitewash the fence. What we disagree about is what it means in thematic terms.
I disagree. Canon is pretty factual, and the loss of magic and subsequent return via the Greygem and The Chaos War are canon events. It's not a thematic interpretation. @I'm A Banana is not trying to interpret what it means that magic came back that way. He's just using the factual return of magic.
 
Last edited:

pemerton

Legend
So, are you setting D&D is a generic roleplay game ruleset? Yes or no.
What? It's not a generic RPG ruleset. For a start, it's FRPG. And within the domain of FRPGs, it doesn't do gritty very well, given it's core combat rules (AC, hp).

[MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION] and [MENTION=88539]LowKey[/MENTION] have already said plenty about this upthread: D&D is a mix of rules idioms (eg d20 to hit, then damage dice; certain class lists, etc) and story elements (dwarves, elves, orcs, Orcus, etc). No single thing is essential; change them all and it's probably not D&D (though a prior characterisation of possible derivations is a good way to be proved wrong down the track!).

I am getting the impression that you're not that familiar with non-D&D/non-d20SRD-type RPGs. Is that impression correct, or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
 

pemerton

Legend
The first has a font that suggests a modern or sci-fi genre, rather than fantasy. I don't know, but I'm going to guess D20 Modern. It could even be Star Wars or M&M, but I think the labels "Martial Arts I" and "Martial Arts II", which are quite flavourless, suggests a more generic ruleset.

The fact that it uses "melee" as its term for hand-to-hand combat shows the influence of D&D on its drafting. These feats could easily be used in a D&D game, and I suspect have been.
[sblock]Star Wars Saga (d20, WotC)[/sblock]
Not too bad.

The second is from one of the 4e Essentials books. It's D&D.
[sblock]Heroes of Fallen Kingdom (D&D 4e, WotC)[/sblock]
Correct.

The third is also from some sort of SRD-ish ruleset - it uses the technical terminology of AD&D but not 3E (bonues/penalties "to hit" in the -6 to +2 range, saves vs paralysation, 1d4 hp damage). I think it's some sort of AD&D OA clone. It's clearly meant for use in a D&D game - it's in the category of unofficial supplement, like an article in Dragon magazine back in the day.
[sblock]The Complete Ninja's Handbook (D&D 2e, TSR)[/sblock]
Not too bad - I misjudged the era of publication, but got the content right.

The fourth is a list of feats for some SRD-ish ruleset. It refers to "fire descriptor" rather that "fire" or "fire keyword"; and it refers to "class skills" - which makes it 3E rather than 4e. I'll guess some 3E-era FR supplement, maybe the SKR campaign guide. It's clearly for use in 3E D&D.
[sblock]Forgotten Realm's Campaign Setting (D&D 3e, WotC)[/sblock]
Correct.

The fifth is clearly for a fantasy game even before one gets to "Magecraft" - the font tells us that. It's a D&D variant, because spellcasting is located in a feat ("Greater Spellcasting") rather than as a class ability. Magic seems to be called "Channelling" - I wonder if it's WoT? (Never read it, and I haven't Googled it for this purpose as that would be cheating, but I think it might call magic-use "channelling".) This could be used with D&D, but would require looking at how it interacts with existing classes. (I remember the 2nd ed Spell & Magic supplement had "channelling" as a casting option, but it was still class-based.)
[sblock]Midnight Campaign Setting (d20, FFG)[/sblock]
Not too bad.

The sixth is some 3E variant, because it includes standard 3E feats mixed in with stuff like "boosted" feats, feats that give an extra buff when taken as a fighter bonus feats, and "uberfeats", whatever exactly those are. This is a D&D variant.
[sblock]Iron Heroes (d20, Fiery Dragon Productions)[/sblock]
Correct. I own the bestiary for this one - I picked it upon cheap because, as a D&D variant book, it was easy for me to make sense of (I've got a good technical familiarity with D&D) and to integrate into D&D games (which I GM).

The seventh is another list of feats intended for use in D&D 3E-type games. More supplements, and I would guess unofficial simply because the watermark in the middle of the page doesn't looke like WotC's style to me.
[sblock]Tomb of Battle: Book of Nine Swords (D&D 3e, WotC)[/sblock]
Wrong on the branding, correct on the purpose.

The eighth is like the sixth - some D&D variant with standard 3E feats mixed with "shadow" feats.
[sblock]Book of Experimental Might (d20, Malhavoc)[/sblock]
[sblock]Tome of Magic (D&D 3e, WotC)[/sblock]
OK, so I thought these were from the same book - but in any event my description is correct for both.

The ninth is from a 4e book - presumably Heroes of the Elemental Chaos.
[sblock]Heroes of the Elemental Chaos (D&D 4e, WotC)[/sblock]
Correct.

The tenth is in a font that suggests modern/sci-fi rather than fantasy. It has Latent Telepaths, Independently Weatlhy and Pyrokinesis. The use of "credits" for currency, which I've just noticed under Independently Weatlhy, suggests sci-fi. I assume some sort of SRD-based sci-fi game
[sblock]Babylon 5 RPG (d20, Mongoose)[/sblock]
Correct.

The eleventh has a very neutral font, but Zero-G Training suggests more sci-fi. Pluse I'm seeing "blaster pistols" as a weapon group. The style of the table layout makes me wonder whether it's a WotC book - the sci-fi supplement for D20 Modern?
[sblock]Revised Star Wars RPG (d20, WotC)[/sblock]
Pretty close. As with the first, the very generic presentation has hidden the lore for this one. The licensed game I know best is Marvel Heroic RP - and I think it does a better job of having the flavour of the material permeate the character building elements.

Anyway, I'm pretty happy with my performance, given that the two 4e ones are the only two of the books I've actually read.
 

pemerton

Legend
"6d6" or "6d6 damage" is all that is typically said of fireball in D&D, even though it does fire damage, so what sort of damage it does in Champions would be similarly be left out of the statement.
A fireball, by default, could do either - it would depend on the details of the build, wouldn't it?
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top