D&D 5E Is it fair to cast save-or-suck spells on the players?

lowkey13 · Jun 23, 2017

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Soul Stigma · Jun 23, 2017

GMforPowergamers said:
the only sports I ever played where little leagues that guaranteed play to everyone. I don't understand how you can be part of a team and never play, so yes...not a sports guy...

why yes, I assume the social compact (contract?) would involve everyone being part of the group, and no one sitting out for too long...and again length of time varies. Sit through a 10 min conversation about godzila even though I don't like godzila no problem, sit through a 6 hour godzila movie marathon is asking a bit much though...

I have many times tried to think this through...and always came to the same conculsion, my time off is better spent having fun then sitting and watching others have fun.

so someone should sit and not have fun because its better for others for you to not have fun... I am really missing something here.

agreed

no...no I don't again you list small short term things to compare to an entire night

and I still don't understand no one is giving me a reason that makes any sense.

yes, if I bring a basket ball and am told "go sit and watch us all play basketball, after a few mintues I say "Can I get next game at least" and am told "No" then I say "fine, have fun I'm going to the movies" doesn't seem like I'm the one being rude...the people who expect me to sit for hours not playing the game we agreed to play but watch them play seem WAY rude though...

how long should someone sit with nothing to do to not be rude? I waited 10ish minutes (long after the other PCs realized there was nothing they could do), then I asked if there was any way I could get out...the DM told me point blank there wasn't until the PCs finished this quest and came back to find an NPC witch would be a quest in and of itself... so I waited a few minutes said my good byes, and called my girl.

The next week I showed up with a new PC and joined the current dungeon, played it out, then helped the other PCs perform a quest for the Arcmage NPC so he would free my main character who then became my main PC again with my new PC becoming a reaccuring NPC...

this happened in 98 when I was 17. I would have left the game MUCH sooner now adays the DM had control issues that I didn't recognize back then. I can't imagine it happening today. (The DM in question is married to one of my on again off again players of 5e, but he never updated from 2e) the entire scenario was so bonkers...

We entered a dungeon, the thief checked for traps, DM rolled 'behind a screen' (more or less unseeable) said "you find nothing" but when the fighter opened the door it was traped and hit me, the fighter, and an NPC...I failed my 20% chance to negate and failed (rolled too high) my save. I was imprisoned in gem that was then somewhere in the dungeon. SO now the party continued on looking for me... the next room had another trap disarmed easy, then a fight with some mechanical things... all of this I was present for. However this is when I asked if I could come back in anyway...

Since we were 7th level the DM honestly told me no.

SO my wizard was out (until we could go back and get someone with 9th level spells to undo this) Since his rule was new PCs come in 1st level I left, and over the week made a Dwarven Fighter/Cleric 1/1 who came in and sponged xp for a while...

Sounds like someone took the Gygax gotcha to 11.

lowkey13 · Jun 23, 2017

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Caliban · Jun 23, 2017

lowkey13 said:
(emphasis supplied)

You don't need to be a Paladin to do that!

It is precisely because I cannot do a thing that I am the proper judge of it ... and I always find others singularly lacking.

Well, the "with holy power" part is specifically why you play a Paladin.

Or a stodgy cleric.

I've also played a Fighter/Warlock who sold his soul to a fiend for the power to exact revenge on his enemies...and somehow ended up being the moral compass of the party. Because everyone else was that much worse than him. :hmm:

Edit: I retired him at 11th level when he became king after they overthrew the evil ruler. My next character was a Paladin/(redeemed)Warlock.

GMforPowergamers · Jun 23, 2017

lowkey13 said:
I provided you a list of things.

a list of non options that the DM wouldn't allow...I even explained that I asked about coming back.

Now, if what you are saying is that the DM expected you to sit silently, not moving or interacting with the group (and perhaps wearing a dunce cap, or something?), then I would say that the DM failed you.

well I kept explaining to you I had nothing I could do but you didn't believe me. I could sit, eat, drink, read, talk to other players (or his mom or sister if they were home I don't remember) but only about out of game things if there characters were not involved... in theory if the party split up I could talk to the players not 'in scene' but I couldn't help in any way or he would yell 'metagaming' and penalize group xp... no dunce cap though

I would still say that it might have been preferable to start on your new character then, but hindsight is 20/20.

nope...all rolls have to be infront of DM, and he had to approve every weapon and non weapon prof, and no max hp at first level. So I couldn't make a character for his game unless I interrupted his game.

If the DM was the same age as the rest of the table, the story makes more sense. Fair enough?

The DM is about 8 years older than I am so he was 24,25,26 at the time

edit: his wife and I are still good friends, she and another friend of mine still play in his games (now once a month) he still uses the same rules. So if game is 15th level and you die, you come in 1st, and only after session with all rolls monitored.

Satyrn · Jun 23, 2017

ccs said:
Yes it's fair. And it should be expected.

Me? I'd finish wiping the floor with the active PCs, coup-de-grace anyone still twitching, & send a hit squad to eliminate that banished fighter. HE can't return to the Astral plane. But he could rally help. And it'll keep him active in the game a few minutes more. Besides, bad guys that powerful aren't known for being nice/playing fair.

Oh, hey. [MENTION=32659]Charles Rampant[/MENTION], since the fight is carrying over to your next session, ccs has just given you some awesome advice for how to continue.

Have one of the wizards dimension hop - along with a decent bodyguard - to wherever that banished fighter is. Not right into combat range, but in sight of and visible to the PC at whatever appropriate distance that lets the player choose to engage, flee or otherwise deal with the new development. This brings the player back into the game, and lessens the load the main party has to face. That should help.

And if you make it the wizard's staff that lets him dimension hop - and make it clear to the banished fighter that it was the staff's doing - you open up a way for him to regroup with the party, perhaps by defeating the wizard or at least by grabbing the staff.

Uchawi · Jun 23, 2017

My only argument pro or con in regards to save or suck is consistency from a rules perspective. Martial ability should have similar save or suck in the same proportion to spells. After that whatever the players throw at the DM can be paid back in spades.

TheNoremac42 · Jun 23, 2017

There's no such thing as fair in love and war. If the NPCs are the type to use dishonorable tactics, then make them use whatever they've got. It's only considered cheating if they lose. We call it "good tactics" if they win.

Satyrn · Jun 23, 2017

Caliban said:
You are probably a much more even tempered person than I am. And probably less selfish. But I'd also feel zero guilt about leaving, so being poorly socialized and low empathy has some benefits.

I'd probably feel guilty if I was at that DM of [MENTION=67338]GMforPowergamers[/MENTION]. I'd feel like a bit of an ass for sidelining him so completely that he wanted ro leave just after we started.

robus · Jun 23, 2017

Satyrn said:
I'd probably feel guilty if I was at that DM of [MENTION=67338]GMforPowergamers[/MENTION]. I'd feel like a bit of an ass for sidelining him so completely that he wanted ro leave just after we started.

That's the bit that doesn't make sense. A player should not be left with no hope. Give them a spoon and have them dig their way to freedom.. give them something to interact with (especially if there's no chance the rest of the party can help.) the player should have an escape plan to work on. Or else be dragged off to some interrogation... but just saying "game over" is bad form.