D&D 4E Mike Mearls on how D&D 4E could have looked

OK on this "I would’ve much preferred the ability to adopt any role within the core 4 by giving players a big choice at level 1, an option that placed an overlay on every power you used or that gave you a new way to use them." Basically have Source Specific Powers and less class powers. But I think combining that with having BIG differing stances to dynamically switch role might be a better...

OK on this "I would’ve much preferred the ability to adopt any role within the core 4 by giving players a big choice at level 1, an option that placed an overlay on every power you used or that gave you a new way to use them."
Basically have Source Specific Powers and less class powers. But I think combining that with having BIG differing stances to dynamically switch role might be a better idea so that your hero can adjust role to circumstance. I have to defend this NPC right now vs I have to take down the big bad right now vs I have to do minion cleaning right now, I am inspiring allies in my interesting way, who need it right now.

and the obligatory
Argghhhh on this. " I wanted classes to have different power acquisition schedules"

And thematic differences seemed to have been carried fine.
 

pemerton

Legend
being able to take hits when that is expressed almost entirely in HP or AC is mostly passive. In contrast, for example, a wizard can throw up a Shield spell to adjust their AC. This does not strike me as particularly interesting in terms of imaginging a high level class fantasy of the fighter. Second Wind is probably one of the more active abilities for fighters in this regard. So here I would invite you to consider with me how we could express "unkillable" in more active ways other than HP and AC, particularly for a higher level class fantasy for non-spellcasters.
This is a good point.

Being a nearly unkillable dealer of death is a very primal human fantasy. Look how obsessed people get in pop culture with dudes whose superpower is being really good at shooting things with a bow: the Green Arrow, Legolas, Hawkeye, etc. All of whom would fit the Fighter role in D&D well, and are major foci of wish fulfillment fantasy. I understand that not everyone thinks getting off twelve arrows in 12 seconds is epic...but try doing that sometime.
My view on 12 arrows in 6 seconds is that it is mostly colour. The 6-second round could equally be a 1 minute round (as per AD&D) and very little would have to change about the basic resolution framework. What actually determines how many foes an archer can take down is a function of the ratio of shots/strikes for the archer vs the enemy, plus damage per hit relative to hp.

So if monsters have big hit point totals, and a reasonable chance per round of squashing an archer, than 12 shots per round may not be more effective than 2 shots per round in a system where monsters have low hit point totals and only a very low chance of squashing an archer. The latter setup may be more likely to produce a play experience of playing a mighty archer even though the notional rate of shots per minute is lower.

As far as Hawkeye etc is concerned, I've always liked this comment by Ron Edwards:

Comics fans will recognize that Hawkeye is just as significant as Thor, as a member of the Avengers, or even more so. In game terms, this is a Character Components issue: Hawkeye would have a high Metagame component whereas Thor would have a higher Effectiveness component.​

Once you get to a system like 4e, or MHRP, distinguishing the effectiveness and metagame components becomes increasingly tricky, as the two are tightly interwoven (contrast, say, a system like RQ + fate points - eg Burning Wheel - where the distinction between effectiveness and meta is easier to see).
 

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pemerton

Legend
This is but part of a larger challenge which sees the characters first being able to find and reach the horn, withstand its effects and then defeat its guardians, being the elemental and the stone golem, nevermind the patrol that eventually will investigate the sudden end of the horn blowing.
1st levels characters cannot hope to deal with this, certainly not without significant assistance.
Well now it seems like a combat challenge rather than a non-combat one (with the horn as terrain).

The level of the PCs bleeds into the types of challenges one generally would face with the action declarations logically becoming increasingly more difficult. Can a 1st level attempt some of these tasks on their own, sure - but not within the greater context of a high level adventure where the resource cost is greater and the combats are tougher.
This is fairly abstract. It's not really pointing me to a procedure for resolution. But are you saying that every challenge ha to involve the threat of hp loss because that's where the "tiering" of capabilities across levels is found?

This isn't about whether a 1st level character could possibly with a slim margin of success...succeed at a single check at a higher tier's assumed DC it's about whether he can reliably do it to successfully complete an adventure.
What is an adventure in this context? My units of analysis have been the action declaration ("I shove my hands into the forge to hold the hammer steady") and the scene ("I want to reforge Whelm, my dwarven thrower hammer").
 
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pemerton

Legend
This is assuming a GM isn’t pulling out all kinds of the classic, shallow, obnoxious Anti-Magic blocks and adversarial, endless army of thieves stealing spellbooks moves. Assuming you aren’t transparently taking away their tools left and right as a kludge to deal with their cosmic power.
Your final assumption would be incorrect. That is literally the DMs job.
I mean, yes, the game works best when played as intended. More on this at 11.
OK, this is the first time in this thread that anyone has posted that the way 5e is "intended" to work is by having the GM block a high level wizard player's capabilities in various ways.

Personally I don't enjoy that sort of play, either as GM and player. So let me note another strength of 4e not yet commented on in this thread: it preserves an intraparty balance of mechanical effectiveness even when every player is doing his/her thing in accordance with his/her resources resulting from PC build.

EDIT: I saw this:

in no-pressure situations the casters are likely to rule the roost. Fair enough
With likes from [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6780330]Parmandur[/MENTION]. So just to be clear - is it now uncontroversial that in fact, in a whole suite of non-combat situations (which would include something "no pressure" like reforging a hammer at one's leisure) 5e spellcasters are more effective than martial PCs?

Because that's certainly not true in 4e. But when I've been asserting that the two systems are different in this respect, I thought that was widely denied.

So I'm confused.
 
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pemerton

Legend
I think you're confusing what happens at the table with what happens in the fiction.
Does a Fighter or Rogue have 10 sword blows that they can use per day? A Fighter missing an attack seems to be a completely different situation.
darkbard's point is completely apposite here too. The fighter's "sword blows per day" are limited by mechanics and play: how many fights will be played before, at the table, the wizard player is allowed to replenish his/her resource list? how many hit points does a fighter lose per sword blow, and what player-side resources are needed to recover them, and how does replenishment of those/I] resources correlate to the wizard player's replenishment of his/hers? Etc.

The 5e team seem to think that the system is balanced at 6 to 8 encounters per day; and received wisdom seems to be that each encounter lasts 3 to 4 rounds. 3.5 * 7 = approx 25, so that seems to be the answer to your question. Chuck in 3 rounds of action surge and a bit of OA and maybe its 30. (In this context extra attack is best analysed as a damage scaling mechanism that also allows for partial success ie some hit, some miss.)

In any event I've played systems which require checks to use magic (Rolemaster, Burning Wheel and Cortex+ Heroic being the main ones), so it's not like this is an unexplored design space!
 

Is the idea to have a complication table perhaps .... I personally like how some 4e spells had repercussions when cast In particular those from the Malediction Invoker.

Malediction Invokers make for great thematic witches.

It could certainly be done via tables or it could just be done via a well-defined play agenda, procedures, and GMing principles (a la DW, AW, Blades).

What does "narratively it is not accurate" mean? There's lots of relevant fiction with unreliable spellcasting, and plenty of fantasy lit where casting in combat is not even an option (or at least, doesn't happen). The D&D version of a magic wielder (almost any of them) has become so much of its own thing that it seems to be warping what people see and write in the genre.

As far as "not fun" goes...well I suppose it wouldn't be for the caster players who are expecting to have everything work automatically, but...a) I've run other games where this was not the case with no problems and b) how is it any more disappointing than when a Fighter or Rogue rolls low damage or misses?

I was going to pose the same question, but this covers my thoughts pretty much completely.

Alright, so here was the last session I GMed in 5e. Of note:

1) This was an Epic Tier Aliens Invasion scenario with actual Far Realm "Grays", War of the Worlds type bio-constructs (like pilotable golems, but made of organics), and their mother ship. However, instead of harvesting bio-material, they were harvesting time, slowly turning back the clock of this prime material plane.

2) I didn't GM the preceding session or the climax of this session. The abstract that the GM gave me for the preceding session had it featuring 2-3 encounters. The climax of the session included the showdown with The Harvester; the alien entity that consumes the time that this world has accrued and assimilates it into its own consciousness, increasing its own god-like insight and knowledge. Again, I didn't GM it.

Here is how the gamestate was changed as play progressed until the session ended. Of note:

1) All enemies had Magic Resistance so Advantage on saving throws against the Wizard.

2) The Time Reaper - machine in the belly of the ship - caused local distortion that gave the PCs Disadvantage on attack rolls, ability checks, saving throws.

3) The Wizard had cast Foresight on the Fighter (their primary damage source) to offset Time Reaper.

Gamestate 1:

The 3 PCs are on the ground below the mother ship, having just defeated the initial welcoming party, which included single-man "hoverpods." Two hoverpods were intact after the encounter.

The Rogue fails one of the two rolls for his Disadvantage on his Investigation check (DC 20, Reliable Talent would apply, but wasn't sufficient to hit the mark as just Proficient, not Expert). The Diviner offsets it with the 1st of his 3 Portents and, due to the Wizard, the Rogue mans a hoverpod.

The Wizard fails his +11 Arcana at Disadvantage to start a hoverpod for the Fighter. So he just uplevels his Fly spell to 4th and the two of them fly up to the mothership.

Gamestate 2:

The PCs are attacked by the ship's defenses; a large number of small flying aberrations from the Far Realm.

The Rogue uses the flight, HPs and multi-attack of the hoverpod to engage them (which the Wizard enabled).

The Fighter has Fly and Foresight and wrecks them (thanks to the Wizard).

The Wizard (Warcaster, Resilient, and + Int for other two feats) uses Mirror Image and mobility (to ensure that Concentration isn't an issue for he and the Fighters' Fly), and Grease (his typical Spell Mastery spells) to effectively death spell several of the flyers (prone and they didn't have hover).

The Fighter uses his bow while the Rogue uses the hoverpods multi-attack and they win the day.

Gamestate 3:

Puzzle challenge to open the hatch. PC build neutral.

Gamestate 4:

The welcoming party. Mass Suggestion reduces the HUGE enemy force by 1/3. Forcecage cuts them by another 1/3. The rest are obliterated by the Rogue and Fighter.

They leave one alive to interrogate to attempt to locate The Time Reaper. They don't speak the same language (the Wizard doesn't want to burn a 3rd level for Tongues when he can...see below). The Fighter tried to pantomime what they were looking for and threaten the creature, but his Intimidate failed as he rolled really low (a 3 I think).

Gamestate 5:

Wizard casts Locate Object. This saved them 4 random encounter rolls during exploration so, while they ended up having an encounter on the way there (a defense system - equivalent of a Trap - that the Rogue was able to successfully deal with), it saved them another resource-depleting encounter (obviously no Long Rests, but Short Rests were fine) on this ship.

Gamestate 6:

The Time Reaper and the General. A parlay begins with the ship's commander and engineer. Tongues + Geas + 2nd use of Divine Portent to deal with the Magic Resistance and he's charmed. Fighter fails to destroy the arcane machine via Athletics and a nasty Time Warp AoE attack ensues on the PCs. Rogue with Disadvantage fails to destroy it via Expertise Thievery, but the Diviner turns his low roll into a 13 with his final use of Divine Portent and The Time Reaper is destroyed. Now, no Disadvantage for the Rogue and Wizard and the Fighter's Foresight equals Advantage.

Due to the charmed commander, they (a) get some relevant mechanical info for the combat to come with The Harvester, (b) enable a Short Rest, (c) they don't have to use their resources to fight him, (d) they avoid multiple further potential random encounters with a Take Me to Your Leader scene transition.

That is where the session ended. I didn't GM the climax.




It was a brutal indication of the disparate might of endgame Wizardry and Diviner's specifically (Portent is incredibly awesome in terms of thematics as an ability, brilliantly conceived, but unreal how powerful in terms of dictating or salvaging outcomes).

I'm sure people will decry this for bad scenario design, not "spotlighting the martial PCs", or not being adversarial enough against the caster PC, but I obviously disagree. This is exactly the sort of scenario that should be playing out in an Epic Tier game. All kinds of asymmetrical/multi-axis problems that, unfortunately as the system is constructed and as orthodox GMing dictates (orthodox insofar as the dictates of the regular GM of that game...which comports with the spirit of GMs I see on this board), martial characters struggle to deal with.
 
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pemerton

Legend
Okay I realize this isn't your quote but I'm finding it hard to parse exactly what is meant. So when I look in the 4e DMG pg. 64 there is a chart that lists DC's to climb or Break Through Walls. It lists a 6in thick wooden wall as a DC 26 to break and a natural stone wall (3ft thick) as a DC 43 to break. Is the contention that I can't measure how much closer I get to being able to break stone walls vs. wooden by looking at the bonuses I am receiving in Athletics skill?? If so that doesn't seem right.
LostSoul is clear that he's trying to identify a general feature of each system. If someone uses the chart you mention in the DMG, then as far as punching through walls is concerned it is closer to 3E. (Though it will be STR, not Athletics, as a general rule.)

The Essentials Rules Compendium tended to establish a greater coherence in the 4e system, and reduced the 3E-like elements while increasing the emphasis on the approach that LostSoul describes. At which point the DMG chart becomes something much closer to a "guide to some default fiction assumptions".
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Yes... but how?

Adding a second roll basically means you need two good rolls to succeed. It's effectively disadvantage. And thus any bonus for successfully vaulting that's less than a +5 will mean it's not even worth attempting.
Huh? Where did I say anything about a second roll?

The lancer rolls as if anyone else would when using a class skill or ability. Anyone else rolls at a big penalty (-10?) which of course may well mean that for some characters it's impossible - I'm fine with that.

Right... which might both encourage people to vault and then be disappointing when they can't. Or when doing so is mechanically less reliable than not using a pole at all.
So they have to learn by trial and error what works and what doesn't. No big deal.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
If I have time tonight, I’m going to flesh out the last session that I GMed 5e (18th level game with a Diviner Wizard, Fighter, and Thief). We aren’t getting anywhere the way we’re going so I’d be curious what people thought about the absolute domination of individual gamestates and overall play trajectory by the Diviner.

5e design could have changed the scope of play at all levels and scaled it so endgame Wizardly magic becomes extremely volatile (potentially changing the gamestate badly against the PCs).

If they didn’t want to use a conflict resolution mechanic subsystem, they could have easily included the following resolution architecture:

1) All spells require an Arcana, Religion, Nature, Perform Check. Success and you’re good to go. Fail by 1-3 (I much prefer this than the DMG 1-2) and there is a complication (I mentioned some possibilities way upthread) ) but spell goes off. Failure equals no spell, but Complication. The maths should probably put it at something like 17 % Success, 66 % Success with Complication, 17 % Failure w/ Complication.
I like the general idea here; my only change would be to somehow make straight success more frequent to counter the very valid point downthread that wizards only get so many spells in a day. I could get behind a 50-25-25 split or similar, where half the time the spell works as intended, a quarter of the time it "works, but..." and a quarter of the time it straight fails or wild-surges.

It's not a perfect solution, though. Further options would be to scale back some of the over-used utility spells and (and here I'll prepare to duck the abuse from the wizard-lovin' crowd) to reduce or completely eliminate cantrips or at-will spells.

2) Saving Throw maths should be rescaled accordingly so spellcasters aren’t hit with compound probability double whammy.

That would make spellcasting (a) more interesting (in terms of impact on the gamestate), (b) more balanced as spells become more powerful and loadouts become more proliferate, and (b) more genre appropriate.

This would have been a simple thing to do at the design phase and would have made the game infinitely more fun to GM.
More fun to GM? Well, maybe...if you like GMing arguments between the party's casters and non-casters when the non-casters get tired of dealing with the complications arising from the casters' wild surges or succeed-with-complication results... :)
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
I dont know though. Is there a lot of fiction? I can not think of anything off the top of my head about unreliable magic. Certainly mythologically you do not have unreliable magic.

OTTOMH: Harry Potter, Star Wars, Willow, Discworld, Earthsea, Conan (at least the movies), the Sorcerer's Apprentice tale, there are others I read back in the day whose titles I have forgotten. Any source where magic is the result of demon/outsider compact.

Mythologically, magic is usually an act of a God, not a wizard. When it is a wizard, its usually not combat magic, but either complicated ritual, artifice, or slow. Consider Merlin (mythology? probably close enough) all deception, divination, artifice, and compacts (depending on the source you're looking at). D&D wizards more resemble some strange superhero with a really oddly-specific set of powers than they do the typical wizards of myth and legend. (Although source material varies widely, some wizard-y culture heroes do some pretty wild stuff.)

Turn it around. How many non- and pre- D&D sources have wizards regularly casting multiple varied complex spells on a given day, particularly combat magic? I see a lot of shapeshifting in myth and legend, a bunch of divination, some artifice, loads of deception/illusion, conjuration even, but not a lot of fireballs and lightning bolts. (Of course, there is also the problem of prophets etc bringing massive events like plagues and the like that are un-balanced or nonsensical for dungeon-crawling.) Generally speaking, the wizarding business doesn't seem to be about fighting. I'm not honestly sure about the timing, but I've seen others argue that this wizard-as-artillery thing is a modern (for a very broad use of modern) invention that coincides with the advent of gunpowder in warfare, particularly artillery.

Does a Fighter or Rogue have 10 sword blows that they can use per day? A Fighter missing an attack seems to be a completely different situation.

Dunno why. I mean, if magic has to be reliable...what the heck are saving throws?
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
So just to be clear - is it now uncontroversial that in fact, in a whole suite of non-combat situations (which would include something "no pressure" like reforging a hammer at one's leisure) 5e spellcasters are more effective than martial PCs?
Reforging a magic hammer, certainly - when it comes to the enchantment part. Reforging an ordinary hammer, or the actual smithing of a hammer to be enchanted later? Unless you've got blacksmith in your background, good luck with that no matter what class you are.

Because that's certainly not true in 4e. But when I've been asserting that the two systems are different in this respect, I thought that was widely denied.

So I'm confused.
Beyond the single reforging example, in all editions casters have - or can have, depending on spells known - the advantage; and I've never claimed otherwise. It breaks down by pillar a bit in terms of what they have and how possible it is to slow them down:

Social pillar: casters sometimes have big advantages here with charm-like spells* and some disguise and-or illusion options; but these can sometimes be reined in.
Exploration pillar: casters have massive advantages here - divinations, knowledge skills, transport spells, concealment spells, item knowledge, etc. etc. - that are hard to impossible to rein in.
Combat pillar: casters have some advantages here but using tactics and-or houserules noted above** this is the pillar where they can most effectively be reined in.

* - where I say 'spells' here, include 'rituals' too.
** - beyond the simple (and boring) GM/setting fiats of anti-magic fields and the like.

And I can't see how this would be any different in 4e than in 5e or 1e or 3e.
 

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