D&D 5E Do you miss attribute minimums/maximums?

Sadras

Legend
No, it is not. You can easily say that the same fantasy "reality" which has created materials like Adamant (and by the way, we don't know the origins of these metals... RL metals come from stellar processes. I don't think this is true in the typical D&D world ;) ) also gave halflings or other seemingly impossibly strong small races extra efficient or dense muscle tissue and ultra-flexible-still-durable bones. This can be purely biological and natural. Nowhere does the description of a halfling say "this humanoid is from head to toe the VERY SAME as a human, just 1/2 the size". Halflings don't exist in our world, same as Adamant, Giant Eagles (which are not magical and shouldn't be able to fly, either) or Myconids. So why apply RL assumptions to the one, but not the others?

There has been plenty of D&D lore through the editions and much fiction (LotR) which would contradict the above, hence the halfling causes more of a concern than other topics. Halflings are also a playble race, unlike the Giant Eagle. It is more in your face that this 3 foot human, in 5e, can be as strong as the mightiest orc. It ain't right.
 

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Igwilly

First Post
in 5e, yes, maybe. In earlier editions, no. For example, fast movement is an extraordinary (read: non-magical) ability. And mighty rage gives a whopping +8 Str/con as Ex as well... Just because you *could* explain something extraordinary with magic, this doesn't mean that RAW call such effects magical at all.



No, it is not. You can easily say that the same fantasy "reality" which has created materials like Adamant (and by the way, we don't know the origins of these metals... RL metals come from stellar processes. I don't think this is true in the typical D&D world ;) ) also gave halflings or other seemingly impossibly strong small races extra efficient or dense muscle tissue and ultra-flexible-still-durable bones. This can be purely biological and natural. Nowhere does the description of a halfling say "this humanoid is from head to toe the VERY SAME as a human, just 1/2 the size". Halflings don't exist in our world, same as Adamant, Giant Eagles (which are not magical and shouldn't be able to fly, either) or Myconids. So why apply RL assumptions to the one, but not the others?
Suspension of disbelieve.
A giant is completely unrealistic. A giant inside a 2 x 2 squares room with a tiny door and no food available isn't only unrealistic: it makes you think "this is wrong".
The same process explain nearly every other "realism" problem. It's not about realism: it's immersion.
With the same process you are using, we can justify things like recovering all your HP in 5 minutes or that all women wearing chainmail bikinis have the same AC than all men with complete plate armor. You can create reasons but it's stretching too much. We just don't buy it.
 

Coroc

Hero
Pixies are not as tiny as you might think. Okay, they are tiny in some editions, but even then they are only a bit smaller and lighter than a halfling. Not like the diminuitive Tinkerbell one might imagine. And they get a good STR penalty in these editions. 5e doesn't even have a PC pixie race and the sprite (which is tiny) has a STR of 3.

PC races are close enough to each other that a ridiculously high STR halfling or CHA half-orc or DEX dwarf can work without looking too strange. I've played in PF groups where our high level human fighter had a STR high enough to let him lift an elephant. I've had players doing WuXia like jumps on roofs (6m high balcony? No prob for a speedy monk). So a super strong halfling in 5e doesn't really break *my* immersion. Even without magic, I can simply let my imagined physics or biology work a different way in my game world. This isn't earth ;)

Also, Ant-Man. And similar superheroes which can be quite lean, but super-super strong. And to be honest, D&D and its derivatives are in many cases a crossover between fantasy and superheroics. If you want a more LOTR style game (which is great!), you'd actually have to adjust your D&D. And other systems are better in portraying of low power or mundane fantasy.

Besides, I don't get how people are so picky about realism when it comes to racial (or gender) attributes when they happily accept fantasy material like Adamant which can mysteriously ignore all hardness without being magical or lightweight but durable Mithril. Or ironwood. Or a Tarrasque that survives more than a few hours. Or magically increasing a person's size by a huge margin without said person quickly succumbing to overheating. Or using mundane (non-magical) alchemy to emulate magical effects.

BTW the Warcraft movie had mainly Orcs and Humans. Big, oversized weapons are a common trope in videogames though and I know a lot of people who love their weapons that way. Although even I don't know how a 3m long Masamune can be handled with one hand. But I'd rather have a halfling weapons master wield a weapon that's a bit smaller than a human's.

For me D&D at least back in the days up to 2nd maybe 3rd ed was always about a Group of individuals with different classes and/or races every one with their own strength and weakness who as a Group could overcome obstacles which they couldn´t overcome alone or as a Group of their own race / class. This is the principle in LOTR and it had evolved into D&D back that days. Back then you wanted to play a drow maybe because the drizzt was new that time maybe because the sexy looks maybe to rp the difficulty acting with ppl who saw a monster in you. If the DM would let you do that he would eventually Strip you of your magic resistance and cantrip Gimmicks but leave you with sunlight disadvantage at least for a while. Of course your racial +1 to +5 drow equip would turn to dust in the sunlight.

If you were in for something new the "evil" campaign the DM might leave you classed drow but all of the Group and with all the Gimmicks and adjusted Mobs and rp issues to compensate for your OP

With 3rd Edition came the urge everyone must be able to Play any race / class whatever. They still left all the Attribute modifiers and other Gimmicks but you had an XP malus to counter for imbalamce compared with Standard races.

In 4e which i did never Play PnP so i might be a bit wrong it was all fluff. 3 roles and different names for approx the same damage Output etc .

Today ppl want to make everything equal and politically correct even in D&D. In RL no Kid is the loser of a race anymore he is the tenth winner instead.
But D&D is a highly politically incorrect game as such (i am joking a bit here of course) you got prejudice run around and kill stuff to take their stuff in the Name of lawful good :p

It does the game no good if this leads to things like halfling warrior has to be as strong as the halforc warrior. It is totally ok usig RAW to do such things but ist diversity stupidity imho. You want to Play a halfling warrior? go for it here is the dex 20 Ko 20 halfling short sword expert. i bet he does as much damage as his half orc colleague (dpr another equality sh*** of These days, ok it helps to evaluate some combat abilities but it has nnothing to do with roleplay asides from statistics) and has as many hitpoints.


With that said in 5 E i had bigger concerns about the halflings possible 22 in dex which he would get for compensating for only 18 (ridiculous) str because that +1 in dex would affect ac important dex save attack roll and damge roll for ranged and Finesse weapons. And thats an awful lot which could imbalance things more than 18 str instaed of 20.
 

Lylandra

Adventurer
There has been plenty of D&D lore through the editions and much fiction (LotR) which would contradict the above, hence the halfling causes more of a concern than other topics. Halflings are also a playble race, unlike the Giant Eagle. It is more in your face that this 3 foot human, in 5e, cahttp://www.enworld.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?363-Character-Builds-amp-Optimizationn be as strong as the mightiest orc. It ain't right.

1) LotR is not D&D. Especially if you look at everything past 3.0.
2) There are no lightfoot halflings in LotR.
3) I mentioned this argument as the pixie fighter etc. started a cycle of "how tiny can it get until my suspension of disbelief has ended".
4) I get why this is a concern for some people, but I say that it is no issue for me. And I try to provide (even physical) reasons why.

Suspension of disbelieve.
A giant is completely unrealistic. A giant inside a 2 x 2 squares room with a tiny door and no food available isn't only unrealistic: it makes you think "this is wrong".
The same process explain nearly every other "realism" problem. It's not about realism: it's immersion.
With the same process you are using, we can justify things like recovering all your HP in 5 minutes or that all women wearing chainmail bikinis have the same AC than all men with complete plate armor. You can create reasons but it's stretching too much. We just don't buy it.

4) Yep, an ogre in a 2x2 room would be unrealistic. Yet it (and many other scenarios which make no logical sense to us) is a regular part of many "classic" dungeons. Dungeons which are claimed to be loved by many players and GMs (not by me, though. I'm not a fan of such dungeons.)
5) In 4e you could recover all your HP in 5 minutes. This game world and its metabolisms just worked that way. Is it realistic compared to our RL standards? No. Is it possible in a fictional game world? Yes! Especially when you already have trolls etc. with fast healing in your standard bestiary since 1e
6) Chain Mail Bikinis were afaik never part of official rules unless you count some artwork meant to titillate young men as canon rules. They are artistical interpretation, nothing more.

For me D&D at least back in the days up to 2nd maybe 3rd ed was always about a Group of individuals with different classes and/or races every one with their own strength and weakness who as a Group could overcome obstacles which they couldn´t overcome alone or as a Group of their own race / class. This is the principle in LOTR and it had evolved into D&D back that days. Back then you wanted to play a drow maybe because the drizzt was new that time maybe because the sexy looks maybe to rp the difficulty acting with ppl who saw a monster in you. If the DM would let you do that he would eventually Strip you of your magic resistance and cantrip Gimmicks but leave you with sunlight disadvantage at least for a while. Of course your racial +1 to +5 drow equip would turn to dust in the sunlight.

If you were in for something new the "evil" campaign the DM might leave you classed drow but all of the Group and with all the Gimmicks and adjusted Mobs and rp issues to compensate for your OP

With 3rd Edition came the urge everyone must be able to Play any race / class whatever. They still left all the Attribute modifiers and other Gimmicks but you had an XP malus to counter for imbalamce compared with Standard races.

In 4e which i did never Play PnP so i might be a bit wrong it was all fluff. 3 roles and different names for approx the same damage Output etc .

Today ppl want to make everything equal and politically correct even in D&D. In RL no Kid is the loser of a race anymore he is the tenth winner instead.
But D&D is a highly politically incorrect game as such (i am joking a bit here of course) you got prejudice run around and kill stuff to take their stuff in the Name of lawful good :p

It does the game no good if this leads to things like halfling warrior has to be as strong as the halforc warrior. It is totally ok usig RAW to do such things but ist diversity stupidity imho. You want to Play a halfling warrior? go for it here is the dex 20 Ko 20 halfling short sword expert. i bet he does as much damage as his half orc colleague (dpr another equality sh*** of These days, ok it helps to evaluate some combat abilities but it has nnothing to do with roleplay asides from statistics) and has as many hitpoints.


With that said in 5 E i had bigger concerns about the halflings possible 22 in dex which he would get for compensating for only 18 (ridiculous) str because that +1 in dex would affect ac important dex save attack roll and damge roll for ranged and Finesse weapons. And thats an awful lot which could imbalance things more than 18 str instaed of 20.

Don't know why you drag 1-3e Drow into all of this. I don't remember mentioning Drow, nor do I take a particular liking of them in "standard" D&D. Instead, I'd prefer my PHB races ;)

To me, D&D is all about a group of heroes, mischiefs or villains doing stuff together. And yep, I agree on the part you described which I'd call collaborative Synergizing into something that's bigger than the sum of its parts. But, and maybe that's where our opinions differ, I place class way over race. Race to me is a background, a flavor, a cultural heritage which adds spice to your character. Class is where your "job" stems from, your calling, your place, ypur spot in the group. This is why I'd rather let people play whatever race they like. Because it is fun to see both the oddball and the well-played archetype.

And yes, balance is a whole different animal. And yes, I agree that a DEX based fighter is just as viable (if not more) than a STR based one.

I also don't get why so many people call freedom of opportunity "PC". To me, this argument almost screams like wanting to shoehorn certain people (races, genders...) into a narrow array of archetypical roles. But isn't it that in fiction, those who rise against all odds or who seem like unlikely to succeed are those characters who are most memorable? Why then would we wanr to deny our PC peers the opportunity to shine as such seeming oddballs?
 

Lylandra

Adventurer
Reallife ‘adamant’ is clear corundum (a kind of sapphire). It is where the word ‘diamond’ comes from.

Corundum, as well as diamond, is a crystalline solid. One is an oxide of aluminium, the other a form of elementary carbon. Both can be cut. Adamant is a forgeable metal. Their chemistries wouldn't really overlap which is why I don't see much similarities here besides the presumed hardness. And even diamond breaks under too much strain. Adamant doesn't.

Besides these two, there is also Adamantan. Which is an organic compound and not very hard. So... I guess that Adamant really belongs to the realm of fantasy and not much more ;)
 

Igwilly

First Post
Ok, here it goes.
1) Ogres usually are smaller than giants, and usually there's room for them to maneuver and such. Otherwise, it may look as silly as chainmail bikinis.
2) It still is a too big stretch for many people. Also, trolls regenerate. Humans do not - same with elves, dwarves, etc. Not without magic.
3) Because this process justifies anything, including chainmail bikinis.* Gamers have to deal with that in electronic RPGs. Those who defend it use the exact same argument as you.

Honestly, I have dubious preferences for realism, but I can see their point.

4) Honestly, every race being equally capable at every class is just too bland.
 

You can easily say that the same fantasy "reality" which has created materials like Adamant (and by the way, we don't know the origins of these metals... RL metals come from stellar processes. I don't think this is true in the typical D&D world ;) ) also gave halflings or other seemingly impossibly strong small races extra efficient or dense muscle tissue and ultra-flexible-still-durable bones. This can be purely biological and natural.
As written, that is exactly what the rules in the book describe. Halflings are remarkably strong and tough for their size. It is so remarkable, in fact, that it is highly remarkable that they don't seem to remark upon it at all! If they were trying to reflect a reality where every halfling is like a super-hero, packing six feet of strength in a three-foot frame, then they really should have come out and said so!

Of course, if they had said so up front, then that would have put a number of players off from the game. D&D is rooted in Tolkien, and Tolkien described halflings as being not very strong. I don't want to play in a world where halflings have super dense muscle tissue; it might be a different story if they were reptilian or something.
 

Coroc

Hero
Ok, here it goes.
1) Ogres usually are smaller than giants, and usually there's room for them to maneuver and such. Otherwise, it may look as silly as chainmail bikinis.
2) It still is a too big stretch for many people. Also, trolls regenerate. Humans do not - same with elves, dwarves, etc. Not without magic.
3) Because this process justifies anything, including chainmail bikinis.* Gamers have to deal with that in electronic RPGs. Those who defend it use the exact same argument as you.

Honestly, I have dubious preferences for realism, but I can see their point.

4) Honestly, every race being equally capable at every class is just too bland.

This especially 4)

But @Lylandra your RL explanation of Adamant is really good, I always thought adamant is kind of forged diamond, now I know better.

On your preferences, the last thing I want to do is calling your opinion badwrongfun don't get me wrong on that. I think that you are from a younger generation than I am and you probably got conditioned by the stereotypes of the MMPORPG hype, just as us oldschoolers rather grew up with the classic in ways totally unbalanced RP Systems.

The good thing about it is 5E allows each of us to use their preferred style and that is most important.

With my players I had to adopt a bit in your direction, as they are a bit younger than me and grew up mainly with 3rd edition although I think in the beginning they did some Ad&d. So I did accept a barbarian dwarf, the only condition was he had to use a great axe and not a halberd, and he did that for my better emersion to the game. In fact I put the timeframe on this campaign to 1000 A.D. so halberds wouldn't exist in that setting. Since it was a game without using feats he did not lose anything.

A propos dwarfs, I do allow only the hill dwarf variation because my picture of the dwarf is also old school. A dwarf can have a ton of hit points and constitution but no way dwarf (mountain) can start the game with 17 in Strength whereas human cannot.
My players grudged a bit but in the end they accepted rule 0.
 
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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
1) LotR is not D&D. Especially if you look at everything past 3.0.
A major mistake, IMO. The LotR Fellowship is the archetypal adventuring party, and has within it examples of everything a DM should expect to and be able to deal with in a D&D party:

- party infighting and hidden PC agendae (Boromir)
- split parties (Frodo-Sam-(Gollum), Merry-Pippin-(Treebeard), Aragorn-Legolas-Gimli)
- death and revival (Gandalf)
- significant ability and-or level differences within the same party (e.g. Aragorn-Legolas vs. Merry-Pippin)

Lanefan
 

schnee

First Post
That stuff worked for grogs. It doesn't any more.
For you (and me), it's 'poetic'. For people coming in new, it's stupid.

Back in the day, that weird groggy D&D WAS our 'playing against type'. It was fresh. Now it's stale. Sensibilities have changed. The field has gotten mature and the gamers have gotten far more sophisticated and pickier. The new people at my table see the old AD&D and vomit.

So, this D&D went 'back to the source' to win back grogs after 4E, but they did it only so far. They kept all the new rules and sensibilities that are bringing in new gamers. And I'm glad of it.

Home brew whatever you want. Knock yourself out. Just don't expect the rules to roll back the clock to 1978. And (we shouldn't) expect anyone under 30 to care.

(Edit: added parentheticals to make it less obnoxious)
 
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