D&D 5E Characters are not their statistics and abilities

pemerton

Legend
It's not that the obstacles are illusionary, but the idea that there are specific obstacles that must be overcome in a specific way is the illusion. The obstacles depend on the PCs. If the players have different characters you just have different obstacles, not that the players fail somehow.
This is very table-dependent. Many GMs on these boards, for instance, seem to prepare scenarios or use modules without regard to the particular PCs.

And at least some tables use "objective" rather than "subjective" DCs, which means that if the gameworld is a certain way, PCs with low bonuses will be objectively more likely to fail. (The only edition of D&D to officially use "subjective" DCs is 4e, but it sets these by level, not by character ability - contrast, say, HeroQuest revised - and so even there you'll have more failure with weaker PCs.)

That said, I summon [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] to read your post (if he hasn't already) and agree with you, as presenting one particular application of the general doctrine that, in 5e, the GM is fully in charge of the game and its outcomes.
 

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pemerton

Legend
I do not think that "barbarian" is enough of a description to decide if that 6 STR is worthy. As others have said, it could be an old Barb, with high INT and WIS, fully capable of leading the party with his years of experience.
I agree with you (contra [MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION]) that the 6 STR could be due to age.

But I think I share Saelorn's doubts about this wily INT/WIS barbarian leader. In 5e, there aren't really any mechanics to give voice to that leadership; and the player doesn't get any bonuses as a leader by having those stats on his/her PC sheet.
 

jasper

Rotten DM
Saelorn…basically Scrappy-Doo. It's not an equal member of a serious adventuring party…… With this comment and others, I know Saelorn is just another combat only power gamer. Do not sit in with his group unless your pc is optimized within 2 damage point per round. And since he plays only in a grim-and-gritty world there are no raise dead type spells or at best they cost a lot of gp.
For those who did not have power gamers back in the 70s, 80s, Why in (eric’s grand mother will not let us cuss here) heck did you send them to my table.
Saelorn in a southern new york accent “ This is D&D. There is no mincing of stereotypes… Jasper your barbarian did not rage and charge the 13 first level guards on Monday OCT 31 1492 at 1313 hours. You are the weakest link…. “ LASER BEAMS SHOOT OUT SAELORN EYES “ goodbye!”
Saelorn , “ Lanliss, your Paladin cowboy was picking 4 desert roses for a silly side quest. You are the weakest pc…. ““ LASER BEAMS SHOOT OUT SAELORN EYES “ goodbye!”
Saelorn, “ dear internet your pcs are not with combat power specs….” Saelorn turns his eyes to the world……
Saelorn, just because your group are combat optimize does not mean that all other ways of play and all other pcs are wrong.
 

D

dco

Guest
This is not a game board, a player makes a character how he wants and plays it how he wants, the only rude and inconsiderate thing is to not respect other people's choices.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Apparently we read the phrase "undesired or unsuccessful" differently. You seem to read it as synonymous with unsuccessful. I don't.
.

Yes, I read a phrase like "unsuccessful" to be synonymous with "unsuccessful" because I'm wild and crazy to think the same word means the same thing. Maybe just me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Apparently you don't, so there's no point in even having a discussion if we can't agree on the same language of discussion.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
The premise is that you have a group of mighty adventurers, in a grim-and-gritty world where people you care about can die and have died in ways that are not necessarily glorious or important, and someone wants to join them.

Sure, there are all sorts of ways that you could make it work with a massive power disparity in the group, but that's not the situation at hand. The Lord of the Rings was epic, but it was still basically an escort quest, and even then you never saw Frodo charge into combat with a battle axe as a matter of first resort and taken seriously for it. A barbarian with Strength 6 is basically Scrappy-Doo. It's not an equal member of a serious adventuring party.

The premise of the game will vary by table. Not all games are about groups of mighty adventurers. That may be a kind of default assumption, but it's far from universal.

Not all characters are meant to be "equal members of a serious adventuring party". There are other ways for a character to be effective than just the narrow focus typically attributed by class. The Str 6 barbarian can be effective in other ways than dealing out melee damage. Will he be as effective in combat as a character designed along the assumptions of the class? No, probably not. But there's a difference between being ineffective and somewhat effective and fully effective.

As I said earlier, it boils down to the table. If I sat down to play at your table, and it seemed like your view was shared by the other players, then I would slide my Str 6 halfling Barb character sheet back into my folder, and take out my GWM Fighter, with his 20 Str and high AC.

But at other tables, there might be players and DMs who are okay with me trying something a bit different. In a case like that, then I wouldn't feel as pressured to "play the game right".

I'm not really saying either approach is wrong...either approach in and of itself is perfectly fine. It's when one player tries one approach at a table that focuses on the other where things become an issue. In cases like those, people should just not be jerks, and should talk things out and come to some compromise between the two styles.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
The premise of the game will vary by table. Not all games are about groups of mighty adventurers. That may be a kind of default assumption, but it's far from universal.
Or the default assumption might be closer to pragmatic spell-casting treasure-hunters...

..or murder hobos. ;P

Not all characters are meant to be "equal members of a serious adventuring party".
Any that are members of a serious adventuring party, expecting to be treated equally, should probably strive to be close. ;)

There are other ways for a character to be effective than just the narrow focus typically attributed by class.
Class can be problematic, that way. A fighter can focus on being a great diplomat, but he will give up more of his effectiveness to achieve less capability as a diplomat than, say, a Rogue, Sorcerer, or Paladin.

I summon [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] to read your post (if he hasn't already) and agree with you, as presenting one particular application of the general doctrine that, in 5e, the GM is fully in charge of the game and its outcomes.
Effing pentagrams...

It's not that the obstacles are illusionary, but the idea that there are specific obstacles that must be overcome in a specific way is the illusion. The obstacles depend on the PCs. If the players have different characters you just have different obstacles, not that the players fail somehow.
A DM is entirely within his rights to do that, of course, in any system. And, in 5e, particularly, is Empowered to do so, and backed up/encouraged by a system that refers back to him for the method of resolution of every action...

For example, all other things being equal a STR 8 Fighter has a 20% chance less of hitting something than a STR 15 Fighter. ...
And all other things are not equal. The STR 8 fighter (if using the standard array, anyway) has a 15 Ability somewhere else, so she's got a better chance of overcoming some other obstacle using that Ability, which might sometimes totally eliminate the need for the combat at all, or resolve the combat some other way than just hitting things.
True enough in theory, but going that way hardly leverages the class features of the fighter, now does it? It might be very true to concept, and even kinda philosophically deep, ("The greatest warrior is the one who does not need to fight at all"), but the system punishes you for going there with dis-synergy.

In addition, the DM isn't meant to be a robot who pushes out the same encounters regardless of the PCs capabilities. The DMG talks a lot about scaling encounters and so forth to the capabilities of the PCs. So the weaker fighter might not be fighting the same opponent, or the same number of opponents, etc.
Encounter design and encounter/day guidelines are just that, guidelines, and the DM is entirely free to color far outside them. The only way to be sure to challenge the party is to challenge the /party/, not the typical of their level, because there's just too much variability in what a party of a given level might be able to do in 5e, among considerations like player skill, DM style, class composition, optional rules in play and/or presence of magic items. Similarly, the only way to ensure balance among the members of that party it to tailor challenges to highlight each of them at various times.

It's not just fights, either....

This is very table-dependent. ...
And at least some tables use "objective" rather than "subjective" DCs, which means that if the gameworld is a certain way, PCs with low bonuses will be objectively more likely to fail.
Meh, the DM decides what the gameworld is like, so there is no 'if the game world is a certain way,' the game world is the certain way the DM decided upon, and he can make - or amend - that decision, at any point before revealing it to the players (and quite possibly, after, with a bit of hand-waving and plausible deniability).

(The only edition of D&D to officially use "subjective" DCs is 4e, but it sets these by level, not by character ability - contrast, say, HeroQuest revised - and so even there you'll have more failure with weaker PCs.)
Those are not subjective DCs, but challenge-by-level guidelines.

5e, though, leaves the DM freedom to make success/failure or DCs as subjective as suits his style. In fact, doing so can be a good idea, as it lets you compensate for the lack of substantial numeric advancement that can be a source of consternation to players. The DM is free to narrate success when the 18 STR fighter kicks a door in, call for a DC 15 roll from the 14 STR cleric, and rule the 8 STR wizard automatically fails. If the DC were simply 15 for all of them, the fighter would (inappropriately) fail half the time, and the wizard might as well take a quick shot at it before breaking out a Knock, because he might roll high.
 

shoak1

Banned
Banned
@pemerton I'm not going to quote your post because yikes. But let me address each area a bit.

Rufus was an example of a suboptimal build, no? That's what I took it to be. Is there any character that would absolutely suck at everything? I suppose. Must we address such an extreme? Or do we talk about what probably actually happens...someone makes a high INT or CHA Fighter and someone else in the group gets annoyed at the "suboptimal build". My suggestions were designed to address that.

As for Burning Wheel, I am not at all familiar with it. It sounds interesting, and I'm glad you seem to enjoy it (and perhaps work there? ;)) but the problem you're describing isn't an issue for my group, so I'll stick with D&D.

In the Fellowship example with Sam and Frodo...I feel you are downplaying Sam's role, and also mixing up the analogy. You say the players won't need Sam's encouragement....of course not. But Frodo and other characters may. Perhaps Frodo gets advantage in corruption saves when in Sam's presence? And let's also not forget the "help" action, which is available to all characters.

Regarding Gygax and the "addition" of character, I think we are pretty much in agreement. I say that added that element quickly because the game started off as a simulation like the war games. But yes, the individual aspect, and also enjoyment of fantasy literature, made that element quickly become an important part of the game. Semantics of "quickly" versus "immediately" seems like splitting hairs...I think we agree on this overall.

My comment about the tactical minis game is because there are indeed some folks who prefer to play that way. To them, Arnak the Angry is the fighter and he gets in front and keeps the other party members from harm and that's his role and that's how they win. I believe I was responding to @shoak1 who has made his preferred style of play known and that is it. He and his group don't really worry about character and their motives beyond killing monsters and taking loot and maybe occasionally saving a pronceaa or what have you. I was commenting that any approach o play is valid, and usually isn't a problem at all as long as everyone at the table is on the same page.

For the last bit, I think you misinterpreted my assumption about game mechanics. And sure there are other games, but we're talking about D&D. But now I'm thinking you just wanted to sneak in another plug for Burning Wheel.....

:p
Hey thanks guys - this is the first time I have felt warm and fuzzy that my preferred playing style is not being dismissed as not being in the spirit of D and D "the RPG game". I have always previously pressed my point so hard because I was seeking acknowledgement that D and D thru the years has favored many different playing styles inc/my own, and that I wasn't being given a seat at the 5e table so to speak.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I have always previously pressed my point so hard because I was seeking acknowledgement that D and D thru the years has favored many different playing styles inc/my own, and that I wasn't being given a seat at the 5e table so to speak.
Yeah, it's still standing room only for some styles at the 5e table. ;P
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
This is very table-dependent. Many GMs on these boards, for instance, seem to prepare scenarios or use modules without regard to the particular PCs.

And at least some tables use "objective" rather than "subjective" DCs, which means that if the gameworld is a certain way, PCs with low bonuses will be objectively more likely to fail. (The only edition of D&D to officially use "subjective" DCs is 4e, but it sets these by level, not by character ability - contrast, say, HeroQuest revised - and so even there you'll have more failure with weaker PCs.)

I always try to do a little of both. I plan lots of challenges and the players make attempts at the ones at which they feel they can handle. That may limit their progress, and I may make certain adjustments at certain times, not to ensure victory of the party mind you, but to at least give them a chance to try. Not everyone is capable of doing everything, that's why we have a party to begin with, but even so not every party can do everything, especially in more recent editions where Clerics, Druids and Wizards are less game-breaking.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a party that cannot attempt a certain challenge. The fact that there are things the party can't do will hopefully motivate them to become able, somehow, to do those things. That's what I try to establish as a DM, to motivate players to want to overcome the challenge. It may simply be personal paranoia, but I do fear that if I constantly adjust challenges so that the party need not gain new or superior resources, that they will never truly strive for anything at all. They'll learn that if they don't get it themselves, I'll give it to them and I don't want to do that.

This is not a game board, a player makes a character how he wants and plays it how he wants, the only rude and inconsiderate thing is to not respect other people's choices.

But that goes both ways doesn't it? If members of, or the rest of the Group expects you to bring a competent PC, then bringing an incompetent PC is not respecting other people's choices. This is a cooperative gaming Group, not what you do on your own in the privacy of your own home. I have no say in what you do on your time in your home. The Group has a say in what you do during Group time in a Group setting.
 

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