D&D 5E Keepiing Current HP from players...

Shasarak · Feb 28, 2017

DMMike said:
I'm going to read into your word choice a bit, and guess that you're equating "adventure" with "combat." I hope your DM includes more in his adventures than just combat; that would be horribly boring.

Sure, you can go shopping for new clothes the whole game if that is more interesting.

Some people in this thread have noticed that players become more cautious when they don't know what their hit points are, exactly. I'd expect the same result from "death spiral mechanics." Your preference is obviously your own, but I would actually like to see both rules in a game - it sounds like it would be incredibly gritty and intense.

It maybe gritty and intense but it is not very DnD. Sounds more Rolemastery to me, maybe CoC if you just want players to be more cautious going up against creatures that can insta-kill you given half a chance.

Maxperson · Feb 28, 2017

DMMike said:
Note that the first sentence here does not support your claim.

It does support me. Typically you won't show any injuries until 50%. However, sometimes you'll be the victim of an atypical attack like a small viper bite that does a few hit points of damage, but requires a skin puncture in order to deliver the poison.

Also note that you're not going to be showing any "cuts and bruises" if you're wearing any intelligent amount of armor (which is full coverage).

That's just plain untrue. Armor excepting full plate leave plenty of skin area to bruise and scrape, not that you need skin area for that. If you get bashed with a mace while wearing full plate, the dent impacting your body will cause bruising. Lesser armors are even easier to cause bruising and scrapes while they are worn.

And there is a significant difference between "bleeding injury" and "simply knocks you unconscious." So I wouldn't say that the 5E book is being terribly specific here, or that it's completely disagreeing with me.

A difference in appearance, sure, but not in severity. Little things don't knock you out.

Lanefan · Feb 28, 2017

Shasarak said:
Sure, you can go shopping for new clothes the whole game if that is more interesting.

I think [MENTION=6685730]DMMike[/MENTION] is trying to remind us there's two other pillars to the game besides combat; neither of which is nearly as subject to a 5-minute workday as combat is.

And I agree with him: a DM whose game is all combat all the time with very little (or virtually none at all, I've seen it) exploration or social interaction is doing his players a disservice by only running 1/3 of a game.

It maybe gritty and intense but it is not very DnD. Sounds more Rolemastery to me, maybe CoC if you just want players to be more cautious going up against creatures that can insta-kill you given half a chance.

Gritty and intense can be very D&D. Just maybe not very this-century-design D&D, more's the pity.

Lanefan

Shasarak · Feb 28, 2017

Lanefan said:
I think @DMMike is trying to remind us there's two other pillars to the game besides combat; neither of which is nearly as subject to a 5-minute workday as combat is.

And I agree with him: a DM whose game is all combat all the time with very little (or virtually none at all, I've seen it) exploration or social interaction is doing his players a disservice by only running 1/3 of a game.

What DMMike (and you too I suppose since you agree with him) forgets is that you do not really use hit points in the other two pillars of the game. Except if you are falling into traps, or down mountains the characters are not going to be losing hit points when interacting socially or exploring. But you know where characters do need to know about hit points? Yeah, that other pillar of the game.

Gritty and intense can be very D&D. Just maybe not very this-century-design D&D, more's the pity.

Lanefan

So you are saying that DnD can be gritty and intense without needing Death Spiral mechanics?

Iry · Feb 28, 2017

I can guarantee that there will be multiple times where you think you are describing how hurt a PC is, and the player will get a different impression from your description.

Either way: No. This does not increase the fun for me, either as a DM or Player.

Lanefan · Feb 28, 2017

Shasarak said:
What DMMike (and you too I suppose since you agree with him) forgets is that you do not really use hit points in the other two pillars of the game. Except if you are falling into traps, or down mountains the characters are not going to be losing hit points when interacting socially or exploring.

Other than the occasional (and hopfully quite rare) case of poisoning at the Baron's dinner table, true enough.

But you know where characters do need to know about hit points? Yeah, that other pillar of the game.

Again true...just reminding one and all that combat isn't everything.

So you are saying that DnD can be gritty and intense without needing Death Spiral mechanics?

If by "Death Spiral mechanics" you mean "that which doesn't kill you makes you weaker" then, while not everything by any means, having such elements can certainly add to the intensity and grittiness...resources stretched to the limit, barely pulling through, hard choices at every turn, and in nowhere near as good a shape as you were at the start of the day...seems fine to me.

If however you mean something else by the term then you've lost me; please elaborate.

Lanefan

Mishihari Lord · Feb 28, 2017

I like the idea quite a lot. Anything that substitutes narrative for numbers improves my immersion. The record keeping seems trivial - a sheet with character names across the top and running totals of their hp underneath. I expect I could do it quicker than telling the player and making sure they got it. For decision making, players need some indicator of their status. We can borrow this from 4E. At 50% we tell players they're "bloodied" and at 25% we tell them they're "staggering." These terms may or may not have a mechanical effect, depending on your preference.

I haven't used this, although I've always wanted to try it. I have used other ways of transferring number-play to the DM. For many years I rolled all damage for the PCs, then someone who came into the game from elsewhere told me that the players were supposed to roll their own damage. I checked the book and it turned out he was right. I talked to my players and they universally voted not to change, citing immersion reasons, though "immersion" was not really part of our vocabulary with respect to RPGs at the time (1980's and high school).

mflayermonk · Feb 28, 2017

FrogReaver said:
Rule 1: Monster Damage is hidden from players. Hits will be narrated by the DM but damage numbers not given.
Rule 2: Players will only be told when their hp is at hp maximum so they don't waste resource for nothing at that point. Players will know their hp maximum since their is no way to hide that from them.

So I think it would be fun to run a game this way sometime. Has anyone ever tried? What was your experience? If you haven't would you like playing in a game with these rules or not?

I personally think it would do a lot to give uncertainty and fear to the players for their characters which D&D currently lacks. My hope is it would lead to more immersion by diminishing the unnatural safety net that hp represents for players playing their characters.

I've both played and DMed in this style in 1e and in some other games (CoC). One DM I know runs incredible games this way and I feel some of my favorite characters I've developed have been with this DM. This includes rolling PC abilities such as move silently behind a screen, with the PC not knowing the outcome.
Edit: This style worked well with the old Ravenloft setting, which already had reduced healing rules built in.

The 20 questions for everything eventually stops, but as someone upthread mentioned, your natural PC endpoint is charmed monsters, henchmen, and ranged cheese.

The outcome will be your group will tell different kinds stories. Those might not be better stories. I think the half-orc becomes the clear PC race choice as well. Your players could tell some of the most half-orcy stories ever.

Warmaster Horus · Feb 28, 2017

D&D is a game. A PC is a player resource that the DM should leave to the player unless absolutely necessary. Sophistry about self-knowledge of mortality need not apply.

jasper · Feb 28, 2017

Harumph Harumph. I had full metal gauntlets and gotten bruises to the back of my hand. I had full 14 gauge knees and bruises from kneeing on a 4 by4.
but most important of all. I have learn NEVER DO JUMPING JACKS IN CHAIN MAIL WITHOUT A CUP!.

D&D 5E Keepiing Current HP from players...

Shasarak

Banned

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Lanefan

Victoria Rules

Shasarak

Banned

Iry

Hero

Lanefan

Victoria Rules

Mishihari Lord

First Post

mflayermonk

First Post

Warmaster Horus

Explorer

jasper

Rotten DM

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