Tuesday May 29 Happy Fun Hour with Mike Mearls - more psionics!

Raif said:

Also [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] - multi-quote function is a little to the right of the "Reply with Quote" button

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Not when using the app, it aint

Besides, the way multiquotes don't toggle off automatically after being used (meaning every other quote brings them in, at least for that browsing session) generally means they're much too bothersome even when I do access the site using my computer (as I do now).

Raif said:

My hopes is as CapnZapp stated, that it's its own class and has at least 3 unique subclasses and then they add a few of these other psionic subclasses to other classes later on that can access the "Spell List" of the psion/mystic whatever Mearls decides to name it in the end.

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I actually prefer if the three archetypes does not share the same base class, if they can pull off the uniqueness without doing that.

In other words. A Psion class (mystic or whatever) with a decent selection of subclasses is the core; fulfilling "telepath" "oracle" and other psionic non-combaty concepts.

Then a subclass of fighter. It gets the bare essential martial abilities, which mostly means the gear profiencies and the second and third attacks. Everything else is switched out for Psychic Warrior goodness. (if previous editions are anything to go by, this will quickly get very powerful).

Finally a subclass of rogue. Offering up a "psychic hexblade" concept married to "shadow psi monk".

So one new class with at least three subclasses. Preferably less power in the base class (than wizard) allowing more differentation in the subclasses (all schools of wizardry, with the possible exception of bladesingers, are very similar). Since psionics should not just be spells refluffed (and hopefully not even spell points relabeled power points), and because of the greater differentiation between subclasses, this needs to be its own class.

And then at least two more subclasses, piggybacking on PHB classes (most easily fighter and rogue). Here I can agree the concepts don't support enough variety for unique classes, and so subclasses of existing classes it is.

Smushing together everything in just one single class, however, would be a mistake. Just like Fighter and Wizard should never be melded.

Li Shenron said:

Why does psionics need to do all those? Magic (spells) does already do a little bit of everything, and yet we didn't really need to have an Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster, granted we got them in the PHB, but multiclassing would have sufficed. Why can't multiclassing also be enough for psionics?

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You already know the answer to that. It's the same answer for the question "Why do we need paladins when we can just multiclass a fighter/cleric?"

It looks like Mearls may be indulging in the "student laundry" school of design for psionics.

CapnZapp said:

What IS "psionic flavor"?

To me, a big part of it is an unique class with unique mechanics.

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I think that you need to decide what "psionic flavour" is before you can start designing mechanics for it, unique or otherwise.
It would be eminently possible to create a unique class with unique mechanics whose flavour is nothing like psionics.

CapnZapp said:

Yes we do.

That's exactly what we need!

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No. It really isn't.
Psionic mechanics should feel like psionics, and be workable within the 5e paradigm. Making them overly complex just to emphasise that they're different from spells isn't going to make them feel like psionics. Complexity or difference should be for the sake of flavour rather than solely for the sake of being complex or difference.

AmerginLiath said:

To a certain degree, there’s a difference between psionic powers and a full psychic (or mystic) class. In recent editions, attack and defense modes have been sadly subsumed into standard powers rather than being their own set of abilities (however oddly designed), but there’s design space for a “spell list” of powers separate from a class list of abilities. That would allow for a balance of psionic power ranging from full-fledged psions to psionic subclasses of normal classes to “wild talents” with a feat (while likewise meaning that all those with some psionic power need not have a full-class level of ability).

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The psionic attack and defence mode sub-game in (1e?) was a little unnecessary.

I think that once psionics have been designed as a system, classes and subclasses incorporating them will be relatively easy.

Cap'n Kobold said:

I think that you need to decide what "psionic flavour" is before you can start designing mechanics for it, unique or otherwise.

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Fair enuff.

Psionics for me is several things:
* unique effects (obviously).

By this I mean that a Psion that's just a Wizard with a new spell list doesn't cut it. It's a necessary but not sufficient requirement.

* unique delivery method.

The more unique the better. This is what really makes it feel different to play a Psion compared to Wizard. Without this all you have is a Wizard casting spells such as Feeblemind and Synaptic Static. Obviously this makes it harder to balance too.

It is a real problem that no edition of D&D comes with psionics built-in from scratch. Only this way will the ever-present problem of wizard magic being able to do much everything that is supposed to be the forte of psionics finally go away. In other words, when the Psion is already in the PHB it becomes much easier to accept that spellcasters no longer can cast psionic-y spells (such as the two I just mentioned).

But it really is worth the risk, so let's hope Mearls & Co end up daring to go with something more unique than spell points renamed as power points. After all, they managed to create the Warlock.

CapnZapp said:

The more unique the better. This is what really makes it feel different to play a Psion compared to Wizard. Without this all you have is a Wizard casting spells such as Feeblemind and Synaptic Static. Obviously this makes it harder to balance too.

It is a real problem that no edition of D&D comes with psionics built-in from scratch. Only this way will the ever-present problem of wizard magic being able to do much everything that is supposed to be the forte of psionics finally go away. In other words, when the Psion is already in the PHB it becomes much easier to accept that spellcasters no longer can cast psionic-y spells (such as the two I just mentioned).

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Pretty much this. A big chunk of the issue with making psionics unique is that the magic-user class originally included mesmerists, psychics and similar concepts within that class.
Thus the wizard spell list includes a lot of legacy "psionic abilities" and raises merry heck when trying to recreate psionics as a completely separate class and set of abilities.

Cap'n Kobold said:

Pretty much this. A big chunk of the issue with making psionics unique is that the magic-user class originally included mesmerists, psychics and similar concepts within that class.
Thus the wizard spell list includes a lot of legacy "psionic abilities" and raises merry heck when trying to recreate psionics as a completely separate class and set of abilities.

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I have no problem with magic users having psychic flavored abilities.

I would like a psionic/mystic system to be slightly better at it, perhaps at the cost of narrowness? (Disclaimer "I am not a designer")

I would also like to be able to use the psionic/mystic system to replicate wild talents, or picking up a psionic ability after being experimented on by, and combat with a mind flayer.

Basically I would prefer a psionic class with separate disciplines or focus, multiclassing, and wild talent feat? (see Disclaimer)

My needs for my homebrew with psionics from the 80s can be replicated well enough at that point.

RE: [MENTION=6802951]Cap'n Kobold[/MENTION]

In other words, I also have a school of "mental" or mind's eye wizards in my world's equivalent of Thay. I feel of course some wizards would explore mental spells, they just wouldn't be psionic abilities, they would remain spells.

The coolest thing to come out of this stream was the idea that you can use a "Discipline" to enter into a concentration mode and spell slots to create different effects depending on your mode.

Good enough for me.

CapnZapp said:

How can anyone be impressed with the glacial pace of content?

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Do you want a real answer, or is that a rhetorical question, or did you just want agreement? I mean, I can pat you on the back if that's what you're looking for, but there are in fact people impressed with the pace of content, they have genuine reasons for their being happy with that pace, and I and others are willing to talk about that if you're willing to listen. You up for that conversation, or was that a rhetorical question because you've made up your mind about other people's views on that topic?

PointOfIsnpiration said:

The coolest thing to come out of this stream was the idea that you can use a "Discipline" to enter into a concentration mode and spell slots to create different effects depending on your mode.

Good enough for me.

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Is there a transcript?