Tuesday May 29 Happy Fun Hour with Mike Mearls - more psionics!

[CapnZapp]

There’s a bit of a difference between barbarian rage, driuid wildshape, and psionic powers.
Pionics very much *are* spells. The psion/ psionicist/psychic knows a certain number of powers chosen from a list that they cast a certain number of times per day.
They can be mechanically different with psi points and ability checks to activate and overchannelling and all kinds of other differences. Or they could be psionic magic that’s just different in origin, like divine and arcane. Making them different doesn’t make them more useful or fun... it just makes them different.

I tend to think the simplicity is just easier. Why reinvent the wheel when you can just give the telepath detect thoughts and the pyrokinetic fireball? Why redesign the psionic powers needlessly? That content is already in the game, and people know how it works.
Psions as spellcasters just makes them easier to balance, and easier to play. And there’s already spell point optional rules in the DMG for people who like that variant.

Because if there's no mechanical differences there's no point in psionics.

If you can't understand that psionics-as-just-refluffed-spells is deeply unsatisfying to many, you will not understand the challenges in creating a psionics supplement for 5e.

 

[CapnZapp]

Jester, I only half agree. I half agree because Ki powers are still a thing. Ki powers are lot more closer to how I imagine psionics than random fireballs and fingers of death. And with spells like Zephyr Strike, I can easily see something like FLurry of Blows being a spell too--yet its not.

Why?

Because it feels more enjoyable and fulfilling to play a monk as someone who is unique to their class as opposed to playing another caster (be it 1/3rd, 1/2th, or full). You're right that being different doesn't make them fun. That doesn't mean that being different isn't apart of the fun.

And your why reinvent the wheel argument is already disproven by 5E class design. Why invent the wheel with superiority dice? Why reinvent the wheel with Smite and Lay on Hands? These are all abilities you could EASILY make spells, and that would make the game even SIMPLER for people to pick up.

The Paladin and Ranger are even already half-casters. Why not just bite the bullet and turn their features into spells?

There has to be some reason, right?

This. Very much this.

The only psionics supplement that's gonna cut it is if it offers at least three (sub)classes, each mechanically distinct, both from each other and from any PHB class:

A psionic full spellcaster rivalling the Wizard, but using as dissimilar mechanics as possible. Ideally not even spell points.

A psionic warrior, who can't compete with the sheer martial prowess of fighters, but augment their skills by "cheating" with psionics: accessing powers available to noone else, including very powerful "vampiric" abilities that drain his foes.

A psionic skulker, combining monk and rogue and hexblade concepts

Offer less, and prepare for a backlash of disappointment.

 

[CapnZapp]

From his videos, Mearls sees this as a halfway point that lets you have psionic flavour without having to learn a fully new system. He likened it to 3 dials: 1 has no psionics, 2 has the psionics system he is currently working on, 3 has the mystic version of psionics. So it sounds like the mystic is still going to be put together but these subclasses might suit some players better.

The mystic approach of one-class-fits-all was deeply disappointing.

Where's the fourth dial?

 

[CapnZapp]

What IS "psionic flavor"?

To me, a big part of it is an unique class with unique mechanics.

A "bard with psionic flavor" that's just the same old bard described differently is incredibly weak sauce - to me.

It's fine to offer it to those who like it, but only if there's more for those who crave more.

As the only approach to 5e psionics, it doesn't cut it. At all.

 

[CapnZapp]

And yet, the elemental monk that has abilities that replicate spells, uses their ki to cast spells.

The elemental monk is also the weakest monk.

And the mist fun parts of the Monk class are those Ki abilities no other class gives you.

The 4EM is alright as a quick patchwork (at least it would have been if it wasn't so underpowered), but still a quick fix and not as satisfying as a more comprehensive solution.

I don't think anyone seriously looks at the 4EM and goes "here's an ideal model for psionics".

I mean, unless you hate psionics and wants it to be weak and boring.

 

[CapnZapp]

We don’t need a psion that adds extra complexity to its powers just for the sake of being different.

Yes we do.

That's exactly what we need!

 

[CapnZapp]

Sounds like it's a return to 3e's era where psionics are substantially the same as magic, only inferior. If so, I'm not interested in it at all. I can already just use a wizard, sorcerer or warlock and call it psionics. And if the psionics will have a fireball, only with d4s instead of d6s, and will have charms that aren't as powerful as the charm spells in the PHB, that's exactly what I'll do. Especially since the mystic failed to impress me at all when it was released as a UA article.

Ayup.

 

[CapnZapp]

Sooooo not interested in a psionic class that is really just a new Wizard school.

Exactly.

 

[Raif]

Glad to see that he's still working on it. Hopefully it comes out flavorful as I love psionics. I've been dying to recreate things like Kerrigan (not the SC2 version, but the Ghost version before her capture in SC1) or Zeratul. The UA Mysic came close, but is a mess.

My hopes is as CapnZapp stated, that it's its own class and has at least 3 unique subclasses and then they add a few of these other psionic subclasses to other classes later on that can access the "Spell List" of the psion/mystic whatever Mearls decides to name it in the end.

Also [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] - multi-quote function is a little to the right of the "Reply with Quote" button

 

[AmerginLiath]

To a certain degree, there’s a difference between psionic powers and a full psychic (or mystic) class. In recent editions, attack and defense modes have been sadly subsumed into standard powers rather than being their own set of abilities (however oddly designed), but there’s design space for a “spell list” of powers separate from a class list of abilities. That would allow for a balance of psionic power ranging from full-fledged psions to psionic subclasses of normal classes to “wild talents” with a feat (while likewise meaning that all those with some psionic power need not have a full-class level of ability).