D&D 5E 5e druids/wildshape/combat forms/improvements

CapnZapp said:

The OP is venting his frustration there is no cool stuff made specifically to improve/customize wildshape beast forms.

There's all kinds of cool ideas that could enlighten the moon druid's day, but none of it is in the official rules...

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It sure is a real crying shame that no cool stuff like spells or magic items was made specifically to improve or customize the Champion fighter's improved critical. I mean, think of all the missed opportunities... defenestrating critical, decapitating critical, embarrassing critical, critical condition...

The other way to view the Moon Druid is that a player does get all those special abilities... by wildshaping into different forms based upon situation to get those abilities that are best suited for it.

Now yes... if a player's way of thinking is "I'm always wildshaping into X form because its the best form overall"... then I can see why someone might say "I wish I could get Y ability on top of it" so that form could get even better. But personally, I don't think that's the intended methodology for the Moon Druid's design. It wasn't designed for a player to select the same single form every single time because it is the highest-powered form available... it was designed such that what is the highest-powered form is different depending on the situation and the special features you gain when you change.

We wouldn't be asking "Is there any way for the Wizard to gain new powers for his Fireball so it can be used in different situations?"... we'd think "The Wizard has Lightning Bolt to use in those situations where the enemies are lined up down a corridor." Spellcasters (for the most part) don't use a single overpowered spell that they use every single time and thus need and have new ways to change how it plays and works (Warlocks with Eldritch Blast notwithstanding). And the same thing can be said of Wildshape. The ability isn't "Bear form" (or whatever), it's Wildshape. The same way a caster has "Spells" and not "Fireball".

Now granted, Capn, I acknowledge you and your table play the game in a very specific way... and thus "X form" might very well *be* the only way a Moon Druid is and should be played in your opinion. And thus, your desire to change up how that subclass plays makes sense, as based upon many of your previous threads have all been about how you get bored seeing the exact same builds all the time because they are all "the best" at their position. But to be honest, I think you're always going to be in a losing position. Because no matter what you do to try and vary things, you and your table will always find "the best" thing each and every time, and you will end up playing "the best" thing each and every time. So unless we suddenly start receiving so many official character options so fast that there is always a constant stream of abilities from which "the best" can be found and always changing... you're going to have the same classes with the same subclasses using the same abilities over and over again. And there's nothing you can do about it, save "get bored".

For me personally, the Moon Druid is already more powerful than it needs to be simply because "Wildshape" is the ability that is "the best" (not a specific form of wildshape is "the best"). I can charge as need be, I can pack attack as need be, I can tank as need be, I can webwalk as need be, I can grapple as need be, all with a single ability. And when you throw in a huge additional pool of temp hit points on top of it... I would NEVER discount the Moon Druid as "not powerful enough" or "not worth it". And I especially do not think WotC needs to start handing out a whole heap of abilities to up wildshape's power beause "it needs the boost". Wildshape is way, way WAY down the list of things that need help.

[MENTION=7006]DEFCON 1[/MENTION]: actually my ideal for beast selection is the same as for spell selection: that work is done to shore up the weaker choices to make them palatable (or "viable").

If everybody chooses the Brown Bear, or everybody chooses Fireball, that makes for a less varied game.

Just as I'm advocating that spells like Witch Bolt gets an official upgrade, I can wish for magic items that might work on the lion but not the wolf, the tiger but not the elk.

Examples taken specifically because there are guides out there saying things like:

Lion: Pounce is easily outdone by the Dire Wolf's bite, and the Dire Wolf does more damage. The Lion has two attacks, but without Multiattack that doesn't do anything. Dire Wolf is strictly better.
Tiger: Nearly identical to the Lion, but with Darkvision and a tiny bit more damage. Dire Wolf is still better.

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Giant Elk: The Elk's Charge ability is nice, and has a solid DC to resist, but its biggest appeal is the ridiculous damage on its hooves. 4d8+4 is absurd.
Saber-Toothed Tiger: Despite different ability names, the Saber-Toothed Tiger is mechanically identical to the Giant Elk, and has considerably worse damage.

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Shiroiken said:

Actually, Cow is listed in either Volos or Out of the Abyss, because of the underdark version of cow, I just don't remember which book.

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Holy cow, you are right. I was thinking of creatures from the Monster Manual, but it's udderly ridiculous that I didn't mooove on to the other books. But if someone did that at one of our tables the transformation would be milked for all it's worth. No bull, we're a very punny group. But I think it's time to put this out to pasture. Not that I want to horn in on the conversation but I do have a beef with single-class druids. At higher levels without doing some cheesy stuff wild shape just doesn't make the cut.

So I do think it would behoove the powers that be to should charge ahead and steak out some new feats. But I doubt we will be herd.

Or we could just chuck the idea and don't get so bossy, refuse to kowtow to the idea that all builds must be grade A prime.

CapnZapp said:

[MENTION=7006]DEFCON 1[/MENTION]: actually my ideal for beast selection is the same as for spell selection: that work is done to shore up the weaker choices to make them palatable (or "viable").

If everybody chooses the Brown Bear, or everybody chooses Fireball, that makes for a less varied game.

Just as I'm advocating that spells like Witch Bolt gets an official upgrade, I can wish for magic items that might work on the lion but not the wolf, the tiger but not the elk.

Examples taken specifically because there are guides out there saying things like:

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I feel like either one needs to retool the animals so they're balanced against their CRs, or build unique forms and not have the Druid use the actual animal stats.


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Sure, but as I see it there's a difference between spells and beasts: the beasts are not chiefly there to be wildshaped into.

In other words, while an inferior spell has no meaning or purpose, there can be plenty of that for a beast that just happens to be weaker than some other beast of equal CR.

A Druid might not wildshape into it, but it still makes for a perfectly acceptable encounter.

So when it comes to spells my wish is for them to be simply upgraded. Nobody will miss the old version.

When it comes to beasts, I'd much rather leave the beasts alone, and instead come up with lovely specific magic items that enhance them, but enhance the weaker forms more!

This allows the druid a greater menu without needlessly changing the beasts themselves

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CapnZapp said:

Sure, but as I see it there's a difference between spells and beasts: the beasts are not chiefly there to be wildshaped into.

In other words, while an inferior spell has no meaning or purpose, there can be plenty of that for a beast that just happens to be weaker than some other beast of equal CR.

A Druid might not wildshape into it, but it still makes for a perfectly acceptable encounter.

So when it comes to spells my wish is for them to be simply upgraded. Nobody will miss the old version.

When it comes to beasts, I'd much rather leave the beasts alone, and instead come up with lovely specific magic items that enhance them, but enhance the weaker forms more!

This allows the druid a greater menu without needlessly changing the beasts themselves ��

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

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I doubt if anyone would be heartbroken if, say, one buffed the hyena to be more balanced against the wolf (naming animals out of thin air, I haven't yet done a full comparison of the animals) for it's CR. Heck, I've argued that the Ogre isn't quite worth it's CR 2 and should be buffed up. If CRs were more fractional, with varied XP values, then it would be less of a problem (though I imagine that would be harder to balance without a 4E-esque monster formula more rigid than 5E's structure).