D&D 5E New Creature Critique - Dagonspawn

I'm creating a new demon and would like your feedback. This is a creature that is born from an evil ritual to Dagon. It starts in a cocoon state and is being fed via sacrificial victims. When it reaches full hit points (via it's tentacles abyssal drain), it emerges or is born.

Two most important things I'm hoping for feedback on;
1) is the challenge rating appropriate?
2) is this two-form clear and playable?

Thanks in Advance


Dagonspawn
Medium fiend (demon), chaotic evil
Armor Class 13 (natural armor)
Hit Points 113 (15d8 + 45)
Speed 30 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
15 12 16 12 12 10
Saving Throws Con +6, Wis +5
Senses darkvision 120ft., passive Perception 11
Languages Abyssal
Challenge 3 (700 XP)

Traits
Hardened Shell
Until the dagonspawn hatches, the cocoon (but not the Abyssal Tentacles) has resistance to bludgeoning, slashing and piercing damage from non-magical attacks and has a dexterity of 0.

Magic Resistance
Once the dagonspawn hatches, it gains advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.

Abyssal Tentacles
The dagonspawn has 12 tentacles. Each tentacle has 2 hit points, AC 13 and until the dagonspawn hatches, regenerates at the start of the second turn after being destroyed. Damage done to a tentacle does not harm the dagonspawn.

Abyssal Drain
While being grappled by a tentacle a creature suffers 2 necrotic damage at the start of the dagonspawn's turn and the dagonspawn gains 2 hit points to the dagon spawn’s maxiumum hit points. Creatures that are at zero hit points when they suffer this effect instead take no necrotic damage, instead they lose one ability from a random ability that has more than one point, when all abilities are at 1 and they suffer an abyssal drain, instead they die. The spawn still gains 2 hit points when it drains ability point damage. A creature can suffer no more than one abyssal drain per turn.

Actions
Multiattack
The dagonspawn can attack with all of its tentacles and can make two other melee (claw) attacks.

Tentacle Slam
Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 20 ft., one target. Hit: 4 (1d4+2) bludgeoning damage and the target is grappled. On subsequent turns, a grappled creature is subject to an Abyssal Drain effect. A creature can use its action to make a DC15 grapple check to attempt to free itself from the tentacle.

Claw
Melee weapon attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d8 + 2) slashing damage.

LordEntrails: Here are my thoughts

1) CR: The defensive CR seems correct @ 3, but I calculate an offensive CR of 15 or so (if I understand multiattack correctly as 12 tentacles + 2 claws) which would give it a CR of 9.

2) Abyssal Drain needs to be rewritten. It doesn't make sense as it stands.

3) The stages are a cool idea and I understand the concept from your description; however, there is nothing in the stat block that suggests there are two stages or how it goes from one or the other.

I like the concept, but the stat block needs some fine tuning

Needs a limit on the number of tentacles that can attack per round, something like 3 is more than enough. 14 attacks per round is an absurdly high nova capability for a cr 3 creature. Also consider keeping the tentacles down and out for a longer period of time, perhaps limiting the creature to regenerating one per turn, but giving the tentacles a bit more meat so that they aren't mowed down by any AoE that breathes on them.

Abyssal drain is nuts. In the bad way. Killing someone with that attack, while using the standard array of stats, is going to take somewhere around 70 turns. Consider making it drain HD (if you want higher leveled characters to hold out, but lower levels to die like gnats) or Exhaustion Levels (if you want everyone to die) instead.

Also the transformation isn't clear, what does "full hit points" mean? When it reaches 113? When it reaches 165? Does it start off at some other number than 113?
Is it supposed to be able to use it's claws while it is trapped inside of it's egg? Does it still have tentacles after it hatches? How does it locomote inside of the cocoon? Can it even locomote with a Dex score of 0? Does it get an AC bonus because of it's DEX score after hatching? Is the only change the resistance to advantage swap and getting a DEX score? Consider giving the creature two sets of stats, with a note somewhere in the features of the first form that explicitly states the exact number of hp that triggers the transformation.

[MENTION=83242]dave2008[/MENTION], [MENTION=53176]Leatherhead[/MENTION],

Thanks guys. I knew the stat block wasn't clear, and I just didn't know how to clarify that.

I thought about making it two separate stat blocks, one for the cocoon state and one for the birthed state, but, obviously, I didn't go that way. Should I?

To clarify, this creature starts off as something like an egg with tentacles. It comes from a ritual and the evil priests "feed" it victims. It takes several months for it to actually emerge (and many dead sacrifices). The adventurers are here at the end (predictable huh?) to either prevent it from emerging or kill it once it does.

So, I wanted the abyssal drain to take time, That's where the ability drain comes in. It should take a long time for this to kill someone otherwise it would be going through victims in minutes and emerge in a matter of hours or days.

The embryonic form starts with fewer hit points (~45) and it's hooked up to a dozen victims that are now all unconscious and have various numbers of remaining ability points. A few are within a couple of rounds of being killed. So max hit points is 113 (or rolled value if the DM does that).

I don't think the offensive CR is that high, because once they are all attached, it does 24 damage (which is CR 3). After it hatches, yes it does, (temporarily) have upto 14 attacks (which concerns me, but...). But notice that the tentacle no longer regenerate and are easily killed. So in many cases the PCs will destroy those attacks quickly. Plus, any that are attached won't make attacks, instead will just allow the spawn to regen hitpoints (2 each). Then, once the tentacles are destroyed, it's attacks are back to 2 for 11 each. (which again is CR 3).

So, how do I best get there?

LordEntrails said:

[MENTION=83242]dave2008[/MENTION], [MENTION=53176]Leatherhead[/MENTION],

Thanks guys. I knew the stat block wasn't clear, and I just didn't know how to clarify that.

I thought about making it two separate stat blocks, one for the cocoon state and one for the birthed state, but, obviously, I didn't go that way. Should I?

To clarify, this creature starts off as something like an egg with tentacles. It comes from a ritual and the evil priests "feed" it victims. It takes several months for it to actually emerge (and many dead sacrifices). The adventurers are here at the end (predictable huh?) to either prevent it from emerging or kill it once it does.

So, I wanted the abyssal drain to take time, That's where the ability drain comes in. It should take a long time for this to kill someone otherwise it would be going through victims in minutes and emerge in a matter of hours or days.

The embryonic form starts with fewer hit points (~45) and it's hooked up to a dozen victims that are now all unconscious and have various numbers of remaining ability points. A few are within a couple of rounds of being killed. So max hit points is 113 (or rolled value if the DM does that).

I don't think the offensive CR is that high, because once they are all attached, it does 24 damage (which is CR 3). After it hatches, yes it does, (temporarily) have upto 14 attacks (which concerns me, but...). But notice that the tentacle no longer regenerate and are easily killed. So in many cases the PCs will destroy those attacks quickly. Plus, any that are attached won't make attacks, instead will just allow the spawn to regen hitpoints (2 each). Then, once the tentacles are destroyed, it's attacks are back to 2 for 11 each. (which again is CR 3).

So, how do I best get there?

Click to expand...

I would start with two stat blocks. The cocoon would have average HP and when it gains hit points up to its maximum it hatches. Then you use the spawn stat block.

The tentacles are tricky because you don't typically have called shots in 5e. I would probably do them differently, maybe like how the hydra handles its multiple heads.

Start with two stat blocks and lets go from there

LordEntrails said:

To clarify, this creature starts off as something like an egg with tentacles. It comes from a ritual and the evil priests "feed" it victims. It takes several months for it to actually emerge (and many dead sacrifices). The adventurers are here at the end (predictable huh?) to either prevent it from emerging or kill it once it does.

So, I wanted the abyssal drain to take time, That's where the ability drain comes in. It should take a long time for this to kill someone otherwise it would be going through victims in minutes and emerge in a matter of hours or days.

Click to expand...

Well killing one person via the mechanic you planed out will yield 140hp. In a timespan of about 7 min. And that's if they only have one person to grapple. So, it's entirely not useful for any sort of pacing you want to be using. You are operating with two scales of time here: The Dramatic scale, which takes place over the course how much time you want to tell a story. And the Combat Scale, which takes place in about 30 seconds (5 turns more or less) I would dare say that basing the transformation on HP just doesn't work in the system, you need a different counter of some kind.

Your best bet is to divide the ability up into two usable bits: The Fluff bit "The Dagonspawn needs to feast on the souls of 108 humanoids in order to fully emerge from it's cocoon" And the Combat bit which is designed to happen in no more than 3 rounds "You drain X hp from the grappled target per round, and the Dagonspawn gains Y hp. When the target reaches 0 hp, the Dagonspawn starts draining 2 exhaustion levels from the target per round instead. If the Target dies while the Dagonspawn has them grappled this way, it eats their soul." Something akin to that anyway.

Yes, that means they can eat a lot of souls in a short order of time, but they need to eat an arbitrarily high number of souls before hand to get within that striking distance. Leaving plenty of time for plot to happen. Obviously, you want this thing to hatch in the middle of an encounter. A creature with 0hp is effectively out of the combat, so further draining it's stats has no real benefit for what you are trying to accomplish. And determining a random stat to drain for 12 different targets is just a chore. Keep the calculations simple, for your own sake.

The embryonic form starts with fewer hit points (~45) and it's hooked up to a dozen victims that are now all unconscious and have various numbers of remaining ability points. A few are within a couple of rounds of being killed. So max hit points is 113 (or rolled value if the DM does that).

Click to expand...

So you intend for this thing to get to full power in 6 rounds. That is a bit too slow, it really should be somewhere around 3.

I don't think the offensive CR is that high, because once they are all attached, it does 24 damage (which is CR 3). After it hatches, yes it does, (temporarily) have upto 14 attacks (which concerns me, but...). But notice that the tentacle no longer regenerate and are easily killed. So in many cases the PCs will destroy those attacks quickly. Plus, any that are attached won't make attacks, instead will just allow the spawn to regen hitpoints (2 each). Then, once the tentacles are destroyed, it's attacks are back to 2 for 11 each. (which again is CR 3).

Click to expand...

I'm going to have to break this down, because there is a lot of problems with this:

• That's really not how offensive CR works. Offensive CR is based on Maximum Burst Damage for 3 rounds at full resources. Which mean all the tentacle attacks are absolutely included. You can get around this by limiting the number of tentacles that attack per round, even if they can all drain every round. It's a bit of an artificial cap, but it works wonders.
• Furthermore, nowhere in the stat block does it stay "Tentacles stop growing back after the Dagonspawn Hatches"
• Also importantly, nobody is going to spend time chopping tentacles after they figure out they grow back, they will simply go full tilt at the core. You are teaching two different sets of rules here, and there isn't enough time to learn about the switch in one encounter.

This does bring up one important question, do AoE attacks hurt the tentacles or just the core creature? Because that can drastically change the dynamics of the fight.

So, how do I best get there?

Click to expand...

Start with making two stat blocks, combining them into one is causing too much confusion. And use precise numbers "the Cocoon starts combat with 45 hp. When it hits 113 hp, it transforms." Also don't be afraid to start by over-explaining the abilities, even if it seems obvious or a bit redundant to you. You can always cut them down later, but you have to start with something to cut from.

Ok, so I've broken this into two stat blocks, thoughts?
My big questions are:
- challenge ratings?
- is the newborn interesting enough?

Dagonspawn, Embryonic
Medium fiend (demon), chaotic evil
Armor Class 13 (natural armor)
Hit Points 50 (6d8 + 18)
Speed 30 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
15 0 16 12 12 10
Saving Throws Con +6, Wis +5
Senses blindsense 90ft., passive Perception 11
Languages Abyssal
Challenge 3 (700 XP)
Traits
Hardened Shell
The cocoon (but not the Abyssal Tentacles) has resistance to bludgeoning, slashing and piercing damage from non-magical attacks and is immune to blinded, charmed, frightened, poisoned, prone, restrained, and unconscious conditions.
Abyssal Tentacles
The dagonspawn has 12 tentacles. Each tentacle has 2 hit points, AC 13. The dagonspawn can regenerate a destroyed tentacle the two turns after it is destroyed, if it chooses to. Regenerating a tentacle reduces the current hit points of the dagonspawn by 10 hit points. Damage done to a tentacle does not harm the dagonspawn.
Abyssal Drain
While being grappled by a tentacle a creature suffers 2 necrotic damage at the start of the dagonspawn's turn and the dagonspawn gains 2 hit points to the dagonspawn’s maximum hit points. Creatures that are at zero hit points when they suffer this effect take no necrotic damage, instead they gain one abyssal point. A creature that gains 100 abyssal points dies. Creatures that die from an abyssal drain cannot be resurrected or raised from the dead. A creature can suffer no more than one abyssal drain per turn.
Embryonic Form
The hit point maximum of an embryonic dagonspawn is determined by the hit points of the newborn dagonspawn it will become if it is hatched, 113 (15d8 + 45) hit points. The Abyssal Drain trait enables the dagonspawn to gain more hit points than it starts with, when the creature reaches its maximum hit points, it hatches and becomes a Newborn Dagonspawn.
Actions
Multiattack
The dagonspawn can make four tentacle slam attacks per turn.
Tentacle Slam
Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 20 ft., one target. Hit: 4 (1d4+2) bludgeoning damage and the target is grappled. On subsequent turns, a grappled creature is subject to an Abyssal Drain effect. A creature can use its action to make a DC15 grapple check to attempt to free itself from the tentacle.

Dagonspawn, Newborn
Medium fiend (demon), chaotic evil
Armor Class 13 (natural armor)
Hit Points 113 (15d8 + 45)
Speed 30 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
15 12 16 12 12 10
Saving Throws Con +6, Wis +5
Senses darkvision 120ft., passive Perception 11
Languages Abyssal
Challenge 3 (700 XP)
Traits
Magic Resistance
Once the dagonspawn hatches, it gains advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.
Actions
Multiattack
The dagonspawn can make two melee (claw) attacks.
Claw
Melee weapon attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 13 (2d10 + 2) slashing damage.

Note I still want to figure out how to incorporate [MENTION=53176]Leatherhead[/MENTION]s comments about the two time scales. not sure how...

The Two stat blocks are much easier to parse, thanks. Though I don't understand why the embryo has a move speed, and 0 dex, that shouldn't be possible. Actually, it should have like 2 or 3 dex, because 0 dex means you can't move.

Lets see what we got here. I will refrain from calculating the CR until you have down something that you really want to use, though as a rule of thumb, the Newborn should be a higher CR than the Embryo.

Well for starters, the Dagonspawn Newborn is very boring compared to their embryonic state. I'm not sure if that is intended or not, as it is meant to be a multi-stage battle. But the newborn should be frightening, and a result that the PC's don't want to happen. As it is, a generic melee-only demon isn't going to cut it. even Dreches have more going on for them, and they are just "The smelly demon." look to other Demons, Devils, and even Yugoloths to see what makes those creatures more interesting. In particular, look to things with CRs 1-6.

If the embryo is hooked up to 8 creatures on average per tun, it will take 4 turns to fully heal. Of course, this is assuming that the PC's aren't attacking the egg, you may want to up the healing rate. Take your PC's (or a generic PC party) and run a mock encounter with them doing damage to the egg, see how long it lasts. By mock encounter I mean you run all the combatants and they do a semi-logical battle, first attacking the egg, then perhaps moving to the tentacles after a round or two. Ideally, you want the Egg to last three or 4 rounds, then hatch. tweak the numbers as necessary to make that happen, at least for the "first fight" other encounters the PC's can smash the egg because they know what they are up against.

Other than that, the 100 turns until they die mechanic is really useless for you. It takes just over 10 minutes to kill something that way. And ironically, it would take less than one person to die for the egg to hatch.

Here is how you do the two time scales thing: You use hand-waving and narrative control. Instead of requiring the Embryo to get to x hit points, say it has to kill y people. Killing a creature can take a day or exactly as long as the plot demands. Rework the drain (keep the hp gain that is a nice touch) just rework the time scales into something like 3 turns to kill something. The key to this setting up this encounter, is the embryo is just about to kill the last few people it needs to hatch, and it only needs 3 or 4 rounds to finish them.

First, thanks for the detailed feedback, I really appreciate it.

Leatherhead said:

The Two stat blocks are much easier to parse, thanks. Though I don't understand why the embryo has a move speed, and 0 dex, that shouldn't be possible. Actually, it should have like 2 or 3 dex, because 0 dex means you can't move.

Click to expand...

It has a move speed cause I forgot to remove/change it.It should be zero. As for Dex, I didn't know what to put here. It's unmovable egg/rock, so how can it have any value? The tentacles do, but... So, you think a Dex of 3 is the right mechanic?

Lets see what we got here. I will refrain from calculating the CR until you have down something that you really want to use, though as a rule of thumb, the Newborn should be a higher CR than the Embryo.

Click to expand...

Agreed.

Well for starters, the Dagonspawn Newborn is very boring compared to their embryonic state. I'm not sure if that is intended or not, as it is meant to be a multi-stage battle. But the newborn should be frightening, and a result that the PC's don't want to happen. As it is, a generic melee-only demon isn't going to cut it. even Dreches have more going on for them, and they are just "The smelly demon." look to other Demons, Devils, and even Yugoloths to see what makes those creatures more interesting. In particular, look to things with CRs 1-6.

Click to expand...

I didn't like the newborn either. I will look at it and see what I can add to it.

If the embryo is hooked up to 8 creatures on average per tun, it will take 4 turns to fully heal. Of course, this is assuming that the PC's aren't attacking the egg, you may want to up the healing rate. Take your PC's (or a generic PC party) and run a mock encounter with them doing damage to the egg, see how long it lasts. By mock encounter I mean you run all the combatants and they do a semi-logical battle, first attacking the egg, then perhaps moving to the tentacles after a round or two. Ideally, you want the Egg to last three or 4 rounds, then hatch. tweak the numbers as necessary to make that happen, at least for the "first fight" other encounters the PC's can smash the egg because they know what they are up against.

Click to expand...

4 rounds or so is about what I want. I did play test it and the players actually ignored it for a couple rounds (there are 2 kuo-toa priests summon dretches to contend with) and it worked out ok (but anti-climatic with the boring newborn.)

Other than that, the 100 turns until they die mechanic is really useless for you. It takes just over 10 minutes to kill something that way. And ironically, it would take less than one person to die for the egg to hatch.

Here is how you do the two time scales thing: You use hand-waving and narrative control. Instead of requiring the Embryo to get to x hit points, say it has to kill y people. Killing a creature can take a day or exactly as long as the plot demands. Rework the drain (keep the hp gain that is a nice touch) just rework the time scales into something like 3 turns to kill something. The key to this setting up this encounter, is the embryo is just about to kill the last few people it needs to hatch, and it only needs 3 or 4 rounds to finish them.

Click to expand...

Yea, as I said, this is the part I'm really struggling with. I don't want to say x souls to hatch, because that's harder to predict when it will hatch. And the kuo-toa priests have been sacrificing victims for some days/weeks before the party find them. Somehow when the party arrives (hand waving etc) is when the embryo becomes eligible for hatching. The hit point method works well for predicting when it will hatch, and makes when it hatches dependent upon the players actions (do they destroy the embryo and let the priests summon more dretches, or do they kill the priests and let the embryo hatch? (Or, as my party half did, fight the dretches and let both happen!)

The abyssal points, or what ever mechanic we come up with is not really for this adventure, because I can just put that in the adventure text, but I do want some sort of mechanic that works so that others can use these creatures in other encounters. I don't like the abyssal points, and the ability drain is too difficult to track... I guess just saying x days or hours is probably just as useful...

Or, what about just saying a 10% chance to kill an unconscious victim? That makes it somewhat random, prevents record keeping etc. I would think every 1-3 rounds to have a victim die (but 12 victims @ 10% would be one per round. Maybe 5% (1 in 20)?

I'm also a little reluctant to have it regen hit points from unconscious victims, but that's probably the most minor of my concerns.