Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 1 Failure and Story

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude. Is failure, even losing, possible, or is it not? Is it a game, or is it a storytelling session?

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude. Is failure, even losing, possible, or is it not? Is it a game, or is it a storytelling session?


Notice it’s “storytelling”, not storymaking. Every RPG involves a story, the question is, who creates the story, the GM or the players?

Inevitably, 40-some installments into this column, “Old School” would come up.

. . . role-playing games do not have plots. They have situations at the campaign, adventure, and encounter level which the players are free to interact with however they wish– as long as they accept the consequences!” - Jeffro Johnson (author of the book Appendix N)​

This will be in three (oversized) parts, because understanding of this topic is fundamental to discourse about what some of us (at least) call RPGs, and there’s too much for one or two columns (I tried). I think of a Quora question that asked what a GM can do when a player’s character does something insane or ludicrously inappropriate during a game. The answers varied widely depending on the goals of the answerer. The Old School answer is, “let the character suffer the consequences of the action”; but for those on the New School side, it was a much more complex problem, as the character’s actions would make it hard if not impossible for the GM to tell the story he had devised for the adventure.

Likely everyone reading this has seen and perhaps discussed the term “Old School” in connection with RPGs. When I started to reconnect with RPG fandom a few years ago, I wasn’t sure what “Old School” meant. There seem to be many definitions, but I now see the fundamental divide as not about rules. Rather, it’s about the attitude of the GM, and of the players, toward losing and failure. That’s at the root of Jeffro’s rant, though he puts it in terms of plot and story, which are closely related.

As I said, this is in three parts. The second will talk about rules, GMing, and pacing, and about non-RPGs reflecting the two schools. The third part will talk about differences in actual gameplay.

I’m not going to be “one true way” the way Jeffro is (“thieves must have d4 hit dice” is one of his rants). I write about RPGs as games, not as story-telling aids or playgrounds, but I am describing, not prescribing even as I obviously prefer the Old School. Let’s proceed.

If it’s a game (Old School (OS)), there’s a significant chance you can lose, you can fail. If it’s a story session, with no chance you can lose, it’s something else. This is like a co-operative board game that you cannot lose: why bother to play?

In terms of story, in OS the players write their own story, with the benefit of the GM’s assistance. The GM sets up a situation and lets the players get on with it. (This is sometimes called [FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]"[/FONT][/FONT]sandbox[FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]"[/FONT][/FONT] in video games, though video games tend to impose an overall story as a limitation of using computer programming instead of a human GM.) The other extreme is when the GM tells the players a story through the game. (In video games this is called a linear game, where the story always ends up the same way.)

If a GM is Old School and runs the same adventure for several different groups, the results will probably vary wildly. If the GM is at the other extreme, the overall shape of the adventure will be the same each time, with variance only in the details.

Old School adventures are usually highly co-operative, because the characters will DIE if they don’t cooperate. New School doesn’t require cooperation, you’re going to survive anyway.

Not surprisingly, as the hobby has grown, the proportion of wargamers (now a small hobby) has decreased drastically. Many players are not even hobby gamers, that is, they’re not quite “gamers” in the old sense because the only game they play is their RPG(s). Many people want their games to be stories, so the shift from Old School to something else is not surprising.

D&D 5e bears the marks of the newer playing methods, as there’s lots of healing as well as the ridiculous cleric spell revivify for mere fifth level clerics.

There are all kinds of shades of the two extremes, obviously. And all kinds of ways of running RPGs. Next time, I’ll talk about more differences between Old School and newer ways of playing such as Rules and Pacing, and compare with non-RPGs.

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. You can follow Lew on his web site and his Udemy course landing page. If you enjoy the daily news and articles from EN World, please consider contributing to our Patreon!
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

5ekyu

Hero
[MENTION=20564]Blue[/MENTION]
"The article mentions failure, while the chart shows danger -- these are VERY different concepts when discussing "old school" vs. "new school".
Failure is not only common in "new school", but at times is to be embraced. Because failure isn't the boolean "you're dead, game over" common to old school, but another fork of what's being told"

This is to me a key element I see in many discussions along this variety and the characitures of positions presented -- way too many times it is portrayed as if character death is the only stakes.

If your players and their characters are invested in the world as more than just map pins and resource modes to be harvested, there are often much more things at stake.

I recall bringing an entire gaming group to tears over the death of an NPC that was an interest to my PC with an introduction letter to the characters first wife (also dead) asking her to help the new dead girl get along and so on, mentioning a few of her good qualities and rough edges, etc.

It was a stronger sense of impact and loss and recovery than any combats won or loss or even later PC death in that game.
 

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Aldarc

Legend
In the sense that the game world is more or less out to kill you, should you be so brave and-or foolish as to go adventuring in it, then yes; and goal number one thus becomes simple survival.

The 'survival as goal one' ideal has very much receded in later editions of D&D.
I didn't say or suggest that character survival was the number one goal; I said that player victory was.

Perhaps. But I think the side-along concepts of ongoing campaigns, 'stables' of characters, generally high(er) lethality and-or character (and player!) turnover, and relative ease of char-gen tend to back me up.
As I said before, I suspect that it is an issue of framing. But I don't believe that the whole "story is greater than character" spiel comellingly fits the bill for describing notions of Old School gaming. It describes your preferences certainly, but likely not the early generation as a whole of gaming.

However - and this is what I'm really getting at - in either case it's the story of the party and what it achieves as an entity that matters and that will be retold (both in and out of the fiction, for all that), no matter how many actual characters were gone through in the process.
Which does not seem uniquely distinct from how games are played now, which would further require a different explanation for OS games other than "the story is bigger than the characters." And many homebrew OS games were run built around certain characters. I also do not like how this framing implies in its uniqueness that in New School games that the story is subordinate to or less than the characters.

On the whole, other explanations are required to describe the difference. [MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION] offered a fairly compelling alternative, namely that the kernals for numerous modes of gaming were present from the beginning. The proliferation of games with a range of niches since that time have drawn attention to those differences. And "New School" games may favor and expand upon a subset of those early kernals. The OSR movement is clearly attempting to bring something back in at least spirit, but even "OS emulators" seem divided over what that essential substance entails.
 

Am I alone in not being able to make sense of the OP's graph? Is the graph trying to say that old school leans more towards danger, and less towards storytelling? Because if that is the case, I don't see how you can make any such claim (not to mention the fact that you'd be grouping all previous editions together as one thing).

Now I have heard that it is harder to die in 5th edition, due to the abundance of healing (I have not played enough of 5th to confirm or deny this). But doesn't it really depend on the DM and his players most of all? I bet you can run a deadly campaign in 5th edition if you want to, and I've experienced my share of DM's that would constantly shield the players in 3rd edition, making a TPK highly unlikely. That said, 2nd edition is definitely less forgiving than newer editions. But it still feels like a broad generalization.

Likewise, I don't see how sandbox or linear adventures have any relevance to whether you play old- or new-school. You could do either in any edition, and no edition (AFAIK) leans particularly to one or the other.
 
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MGibster

Legend
I tend to characterize old school games as being much more prone to having players fail to the point where they could not advance at all. Call of Cthulhu is a much lauded game, and deservedly so, but if you were a new Keeper there was nothing in the main book to tell you what to do should everyone fail their roll to find the clue. Usually things didn't just grind to a halt but you'd often go forward in the scenario without having any idea of what was going on which made the game less fun than it should have been. Long time CoC players would just tell you, "Oh, give the players the important clue and move forward from there." But that isn't how the rules were written until very recently.

I like story in my game and I want players to be able to affect that story without punching something in the face all the time. But I tend to keep in mind that the G in RPG stands for game. It's possible that the roll of the dice will have a severe impact on the story.
 

jasper

Rotten DM
Ok me going to crow. Yesterday I got my 46 th kill in Adventure League. It was first level pc. I also have two tpk in that total. I started Dming AL in Sept 2016.

….Old School adventures are usually highly co-operative, because the characters will DIE if they don’t cooperate. New School doesn’t require cooperation, you’re going to survive anyway…
Hahahahhaa. Oh boy I wished I played in your group during 1e.
Old school adventures FORCED you to TRY to co-operate. WHY? Because (to use video game verbiage) the encounters required a tank, sniper, caster and healer. This due to certain abilities being totally locked behind the class wall. Today the class abilities overlap especially healing.
…If it’s a game (Old School (OS)), there’s a significant chance you can lose, you can fail. If it’s a story session, with no chance you can lose, it’s something else. This is like a co-operative board game that you cannot lose: why bother to play?......
Hahahaha I read too many old farts who started before me here. I amazes me they went out their way not to kill a pc. I think their quote is “only die for story reasons”. Plus what failed. Oops Jasper the thief just got turn to dust. I can create Jasper the Second in under 3 minutes or less time than most NEW SCHOOL commercial breaks. A spell caster would take 5 minutes. And the level did not matter until I broke tenth.
Your word choice is wrong. And totally bogus. I use the following GAME or STORY players/groups. The GAME people are here to pass the time but remember it is a game. They don’t care if last week they were in Horde of the Demon King and this week Waterdeep Heist. The STORY people want some more fiction reason to play and see the game as co-operative novel being created as a group. They would want to know how they got to from the Nine Hells to Waterdeep. GAME and STORY groups existed before I got in to the game in 1980.
….If a GM is Old School and runs the same adventure for several different groups, the results will probably vary wildly. If the GM is at the other extreme, the overall shape of the adventure will be the same each time, with variance only in the details……
Boy howdy is this wrong. I have DMed certain Adventure League modules three plus times. Hit my write ups to see the difference. The game play and story play will be differ due to who shows up to play and what their attitude is. I am always surprise when the murder hobo player decides to play nice that evening. Or when the peaceful one goes murder hobo in the second encounter.
I will give that most adventures back then had little to no plot or story arc.
 

Henry

Autoexreginated
...In the wave of new gamers, as WotC has said before (via Mike Mearls, in some roundtables) we're approaching a mark where the total fan base is almost 50%/50% gamers from pre-2014, and gamers from post-2014. That's a culture shift of seismic proportions in what gamers might want out of a game, compared to the minis-wargame culture that spawned and molded it from 1974 to the 2000s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqjLO6YNKV0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFbCxuvknWM

(I may be misquoting Mike's figures, but I do know he talked about the huge influx of new players in the last three years and how it's changing their expectations of what gamers want in their D&D.)

To add to this:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...-Ship-Themed&p=7545247&viewfull=1#post7545247
"Conservatively, there are 1.7-2 million new players in the last year"

Considering that a survey from 18 years ago revealed that about 6 million people in the U.S. had ever played Tabletop RPGs, as in, "ever", this is an even more mind-boggling figure to me -- as in, by their estimate, "people new to tabletop gaming." A population equal to a third of U.S. players , and two-thirds of regular players at the time, have been added to the hobby in the last year. Certainly many or most will not stay, but figures like that just re-emphasize the sea change in the hobby right now, and is it any wonder why the kinds of material WotC is putting out has different objectives that what has come before? It also puts all the more emphasis on establishing the kind of experience a DM wants to establish in a game for players that he or she does not know well.

..Of course, it also establishes that new DMs also need to be aware of the older styles of game for the same reason.
 

Laurefindel

Legend
Hum, i seem to have a very different experience of both old school and new school (actually, I’d be tempted to say new schools) than that of the OP’s.

I turn to “new school” play because of “old school’s” railroading, and because it allowed me to affect the story of our characters in other ways than going through numbers of characters unti one with exceptionally good stats manages to survive...

this is is an exageration off course, but it does illustrates how my perception on NS vs OS differs.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
Story is sometimes orthagonal, to be sure, in situations where the DM and-or players take what might have seemed like a bunch of disparate adventures and kind of put a story together after the fact - been there done that. :)

But story is sometimes also built in, or intended to be until-unless the players/PCs make some hard left turns.

However - and this is what I'm really getting at - in either case it's the story of the party and what it achieves as an entity that matters and that will be retold (both in and out of the fiction, for all that), no matter how many actual characters were gone through in the process.

As a group activity, I don't really know of any RPG where the story would be about something other than the group/party/team/crew.

How does this vary by game?
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
Although I may not be following the article correctly, I could see how a "new school" story-based game might be incompatible with the concept of loss. It does hinge on a fairly narrow interpretation of the two camps, though.

Basically, "old school" is actually role-playing. The player is the character, as they say. Ignore everything about Gygax and war-gaming (for the sake of this argument). You are thinking like your character, and experiencing the world from their perspective. If the character loses something, then it is like the player losing that thing, because that's your perspective.

To contrast, "new school" is actually story-telling. The player is not the character; the player exists fully within the real world, and is (collaboratively) telling a story about the character. If something happens to the character, then it's no skin off your nose, because you're safely ensconced in the real world. There's nothing that can happen within the game world that can affect you, because you are not your character. And in that case, real loss (for the player, rather than the character) would be impossible.

Another way to look at it is from the concept of investment, though. One thing that I think Gygax would agree with is the idea that, when your character dies, you're losing all of the time and energy you've put into the character for them to get that far. Even if the character is just a game piece, and you're going for the high score, you have to invest a lot of time and energy into getting that score; and when the character is removed from play, all of the work up to that point becomes meaningless. Or even if it's just that your cool sword gets disjuncted, all of your work toward acquiring it is negated.

And I don't want to speak for story-gamers, but I'll give them credit that they can also be invested in their character and the story. They should still (hypothetically) be able to lose their investiture of time and energy, if the story moves in a direction they don't like.

So I think that just goes back to a disagreement about the basic definition of "loss".

Perhaps we need to clarify loss for who? The character or the player?

I think you touch upon an interesting distinction in that perhaps in Old School, the player isn't as concerned about the overall story so much as simply advocating for their character, so to speak; where as in New School (as these terms seem to be used in the article that started the discussion, anyway) players seem to be a bit more focused on the fiction created through the game. So an Old School gamer would never willingly lose something because it "makes sense" fictionally for the character to do so, but a New School gamer wouldn't hesitate. So there could be some difference in that way in regards to loss.

However, I don't know if that means that the loss is not felt by the New School gamer. Simply because they accept the loss, does not mean that they don't feel the loss. The newer games that I've played always included risk and loss....often much more than some of my earlier RPG experiences playing AD&D as a kid. So while I think you make an interesting point of how the two styles of play differ, I don't know that one player is "in the game" and the other is "not in the game" and so does not feel the loss.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Perhaps we need to clarify loss for who? The character or the player?

I think you touch upon an interesting distinction in that perhaps in Old School, the player isn't as concerned about the overall story so much as simply advocating for their character, so to speak; where as in New School (as these terms seem to be used in the article that started the discussion, anyway) players seem to be a bit more focused on the fiction created through the game. So an Old School gamer would never willingly lose something because it "makes sense" fictionally for the character to do so, but a New School gamer wouldn't hesitate. So there could be some difference in that way in regards to loss.

However, I don't know if that means that the loss is not felt by the New School gamer. Simply because they accept the loss, does not mean that they don't feel the loss. The newer games that I've played always included risk and loss....often much more than some of my earlier RPG experiences playing AD&D as a kid. So while I think you make an interesting point of how the two styles of play differ, I don't know that one player is "in the game" and the other is "not in the game" and so does not feel the loss.
I don't think you can say this. Some NS games absolutely focus on being an advocate for the character vice the story. Conversely, some OS play involves sacrificing a character for party success.

This is not a strong distinction.
 

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