D&D 5E Monsters as characters?

MechaPilot said:

If I recall correctly, the designers have said that they intended dragons to be the strongest enemies in the game. Additionally, the Ancient red has a CR of 24. If you're fighting something whose CR is four greater than your character level could ever be (20 level cap), then every bonus HP or +1 of AC that you can get counts because you're already trying to somersault up an icy slope.

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If you have an AC of 25 (quite respectable) then Shield is fully helpful against any creature that has a +10 or more to hit, and somewhat helpful against anything with a + 6 or more to hit (because they will always hit on a nat 20). There are dozens of monsters with a +6 or better to hit, including the CR 2 Ogre. Also plenty of creatures with a +10 or better, including the CR 9 Fire Giant. So it's not just the most powerful enemies in the game that will be able to hit the fighter. That's bounded accuracy. Unless the DM hands you every AC boosting item in the game on a silver platter, there will be plenty of things that can hit you, so having an additional +5 AC is nothing to sneeze at.

I recall that. I am arguing that the added breadth doesn't equate to the value of a character level.

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Fair enough, though I don't agree.

Sure, but the F20 can shove a target prone to effectively eliminate the benefit of shield and then make the same compliment of attacks that the F19/W1 could.

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Even better, the F/W doesn't need to waste attacks on Shove, thanks to Shield. After all, there's no guarantee that the F20's first Shove will succeed. Given that both fighters have a Str of 20 and are probably proficient in Athletics, his chances of success are about 50/50, although F/W wins ties. Which means that F20 will probably need 2 attempts to knock F/W prone, leaving him with only 2 attacks left. Meanwhile, F/W is hitting him 3 times with the same accuracy. I'd say that's advantageous.

MechaPilot said:

With an item that grants flight, I can agree with you (with winged flight however, I would have a totally different position because of the situational usefulness/uselessness of winged flight).

However, most magic items are not so dramatic as wingless flight. In fact, many magic items will play to a character's weaknesses (because a character can really have only so many strengths). These items add breadth to the character by increasing her minimal baseline of competence in those weak spots, but not such that it's equivalent to a character level.

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Well, sure. I wasn't implying that giving someone any random magic item is the same as giving them a level.

MechaPilot said:

Sure, but useful doesn't translate into level equivalency.

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Sometimes it really does. Remarkable Athlete, anyone?

Large amounts of wealth is useful. It can grant a lot of combat utility (hired goons), and it can grant a lot of out of combat utility (hired translators, hired scouts, trained monkeys to poke at at every dungeon surface with 10' poles, etc), but it has no level equivalency.

Magic items can also be very useful but they don't suck up character levels to equip them.

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Master Artificer treats gaining a magic item as a class feature, so it's not entirely unprecedented for gaining a useful magic item to be like gaining a level in a class.

Levels aren't simply measures of combat output.

Fanaelialae said:

I disagree. If you have access to spells like Shield and Expeditious Retreat, they can of course be used to make escape easier. However, that's a waste in my opinion (at that point you're basically going into an encounter expecting to lose).

Shield is an amazing spell for a fighter, given their already advantageous AC. Let's assume that the Fighter 20 and the Fighter 19/Wizard 1 are facing off and both have a Strength of 20 and that their magic bonuses for weapons and armor cancel out. Assuming Plate armor (AC 18), they both have a +11 to hit, giving them a 70% chance to hit each other. Now the F/W wizard casts shield. Suddenly, the F's chance of hitting for that round drops to 45%. The he F gets 4 attacks at 45%, versus the F/W's 3 attacks at 70%. Now the F has a choice to make. Does he use action surge now and take his extra attacks at the reduced hit rate, or wait for a round when shield is not active? The F/W, meanwhile, can go nuts on the F with action surge. I don't see how anyone can consider that anything less than a decisive advantage in combat. Granted, this means that the F/W isn't going to be able to make an OA this round, but the odds are he wouldn't need to anyway.

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And that, my friends, is why Eldritch Knights are fantastic. (Also, Absorb Elements and Counterspell and Blur/Blink/Mirror Image.) IMO they're the best Fighter class, although Battlemaster obviously has better offense. Low-level spells aren't low-impact.

Kamikaze Midget said:

Sometimes it really does. Remarkable Athlete, anyone?

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I don't quite see that as being level equivalent, but that's just a personal opinion. I see it as being a little bit less than the skilled feat.

Kamikaze Midget said:

Master Artificer treats gaining a magic item as a class feature, so it's not entirely unprecedented for gaining a useful magic item to be like gaining a level in a class.

Levels aren't simply measures of combat output.

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I get that levels are not simply measures of combat output (though that is certainly a large part of it given that facing dangerous monsters in combat is associated with the most typical styles of play).

Also, I don't know what Master Artificer is. That said, unless the granted magic item cannot be lost, stolen, consumed, or destroyed, I definitely don't consider it equivalent to a class level.

MechaPilot said:

Sure, but the F20 can shove a target prone to effectively eliminate the benefit of shield and then make the same compliment of attacks that the F19/W1 could.

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Since it takes slightly more than two shoves on average to knock a comparable character prone, that means that the F20 is effectively getting two attacks per turn to the F19/W1's three. You can equalize it if you bring Action Surge back into the picture (2 + 4 vs 3 + 3). Or you could just be an Eldritch Knight and get Shield and four attacks.

emdw45 said:

Since it takes slightly more than two shoves on average to knock a comparable character prone, that means that the F20 is effectively getting two attacks per turn to the F19/W1's three. You can equalize it if you bring Action Surge back into the picture (2 + 4 vs 3 + 3). Or you could just be an Eldritch Knight and get Shield and four attacks.

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If you want to be a fighter who casts spells, I agree that Eldritch knight is clearly the superior choice over level-dipping into a caster class.

MechaPilot said:

Also, I don't know what Master Artificer is. That said, unless the granted magic item cannot be lost, stolen, consumed, or destroyed, I definitely don't consider it equivalent to a class level.

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It's from the Eberron Unearthed Arcana, which you can find on the WoTC site. In short, the artificer gets the ability to create magic items by sacrificing spell slots. These spells slots aren't regained until after the item is consumed or loses its enchantment (the enchantments fade on their own after a time). It offers the wizard added utility because, for example, he can sacrifice a level 1 spell slot to create a potion of healing that anyone can then drink. Even though the items can technically be consumed or lost, they really can't be since the artificer can just use another spell slot to make more.

MechaPilot said:

If you want to be a fighter who casts spells, I agree that Eldritch knight is clearly the superior choice over level-dipping into a caster class.

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Definitely. But dipping a level of wizard is for the fighter who wants the benefits of a Battlemaster (or Champion) AND would like a smattering of spells on top of that.

MechaPilot said:

I don't quite see that as being level equivalent, but that's just a personal opinion. I see it as being a little bit less than the skilled feat.

I get that levels are not simply measures of combat output (though that is certainly a large part of it given that facing dangerous monsters in combat is associated with the most typical styles of play).

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Yeah, my point is that there is not one thing that is "level equivalent" - levels have different values, things you get at various levels vary pretty wildly in how much direct combat oomph you get and there's clear precedent for levels that just give you something kind of useful, rather than something truly remarkable. Not all levels are created truly equal, and trading depth for breadth is something the game doesn't have a problem with.

Basically, a single level of wizard isn't necessarily a waste for a 19th level fighter, even if it doesn't escalate their attacks at all.

Also, I don't know what Master Artificer is. That said, unless the granted magic item cannot be lost, stolen, consumed, or destroyed, I definitely don't consider it equivalent to a class level.

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Fanaelialae said:

It's from the Eberron Unearthed Arcana, which you can find on the WoTC site. In short, the artificer gets the ability to create magic items by sacrificing spell slots. These spells slots aren't regained until after the item is consumed or loses its enchantment (the enchantments fade on their own after a time). It offers the wizard added utility because, for example, he can sacrifice a level 1 spell slot to create a potion of healing that anyone can then drink. Even though the items can technically be consumed or lost, they really can't be since the artificer can just use another spell slot to make more.

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That's actually not quite it, [MENTION=53980]Fanaelialae[/MENTION] - infusing potions, scrolls, and weapons/armor work like that, but Master Artificer is this:

Unearthed Arcana said:

You can create a single item chosen from Magic Item Tables A and B in chapter 7 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide. It takes you 1 week to produce such an item, and you must rest for 1 month before using this ability to craft another item.

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....so it just straight up gives you magic items. And while the item can be broken or stolen, you can just make another one. The design intent is clearly for you to have a magic item (or a few) around pretty much at all times as a piece of your equipment not unlike your weapon or your armor.

Again, the point being, there is no one absolute measurement of the value of a level. Levels are incomparables, their subjective value depends on many things, and saying that taking a level of X is basically always a less effective choice isn't really true - it's only less effective under certain specific criteria that may or may not be in play when the player is actually making the choice.