D&D 5E Monsters as characters?

[Fanaelialae]

Adding one level of pretty much any caster to a level 19 fighter does largely result in something that is not equivalent to a level 20 character. That's an inherent pitfall of the way caster and non-caster class levels interact in the 3e-style multiclassing that WotC chose to run with for 5e. Maybe if non-caster levels counted for one-third or one-quarter caster level when determining available spell slots, that would be different.

As an aside, one of my house rules is that non-caster levels are counted as 1/4 for determining caster level when multiclassing.

It's mainly there to help cushion the blow if someone decides to play an unusual concept, like an Ogre Wizard.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Sure, but useful doesn't translate into level equivalency.

Large amounts of wealth is useful. It can grant a lot of combat utility (hired goons), and it can grant a lot of out of combat utility (hired translators, hired scouts, trained monkeys to poke at at every dungeon surface with 10' poles, etc), but it has no level equivalency.

Magic items can also be very useful but they don't suck up character levels to equip them.

They don't suck up levels, but they can enable a character to functionally be higher level. I forget where I saw the quote, but the designers have stated that gear was left out of the level equation on purpose. That way, magic items don't simply keep characters on par, but make them better.

I assure you, if you give a level 3 party Armor of Invulnerability, a Belt of Cloud Giant Strength, a Staff of the Magi, and a Robe of the Archmagi, they will be significantly stronger than any normal level 3 party. While I can't say exactly how powerful they'd be, I'm quite certain they'd be superior to even a typical level 4 or 5 party.

 

[MechaPilot]

I disagree. If you have access to spells like Shield and Expeditious Retreat, they can of course be used to make escape easier. However, that's a waste in my opinion (at that point you're basically going into an encounter expecting to lose).

Shield is an amazing spell for a fighter, given their already advantageous AC. Let's assume that the Fighter 20 and the Fighter 19/Wizard 1 are facing off and both have a Strength of 20 and that their magic bonuses for weapons and armor cancel out. Assuming Plate armor (AC 18), they both have a +11 to hit, giving them a 70% chance to hit each other. Now the F/W wizard casts shield. Suddenly, the F's chance of hitting for that round drops to 45%. The he F gets 4 attacks at 45%, versus the F/W's 3 attacks at 70%. Now the F has a choice to make. Does he use action surge now and take his extra attacks at the reduced hit rate, or wait for a round when shield is not active? The F/W, meanwhile, can go nuts on the F with action surge. I don't see how anyone can consider that anything less than a decisive advantage in combat. Granted, this means that the F/W isn't going to be able to make an OA this round, but the odds are he wouldn't need to anyway.

It's the same with expeditious retreat. If an encounter starts beyond their base speed, the F has to either Dash (which means he can't use that action to attack) or ready an action and wait for the enemy to come to him (meaning he only gets one attack). The F/W can use his bonus action to cast Expeditious Retreat, potentially allowing him to close the distance and make his full 3 attacks. He'll lose an attack if he's a TWF, but otherwise what does he need his bonus action for? Being able to make 3 attacks in the first round is clearly superior to making 0 or 1 attack.

Clearly, these spells have significant advantages beyond that of just retreating.

If your AC is already advantageous, then buffing it for a round isn't going to be a substantial help. One of the things that makes shield so good for the unarmored caster is the caster's initially disadvantageous AC. Additionally, I call foul on the Action Surge bit; you're assuming the presence of a resource that may well have been exhausted earlier. Even if we assume that both parties have access to their action surges, the increased AC from shield is effectively negated by the advantage the full fighter could get from first shoving her enemy prone.

Additionally, expeditious retreat is a concentration spell. Sure, the fighter likely has no other spells she needs to concentrate on, but she also most likely has to put herself in harm's way in order to hurt her enemies, and that means the concentration is likely to break quickly even with the fighter's Con save proficiency.

It's not a matter of being unable to participate. It's a matter of having the ability to approach the situation from a completely new angle.

In some cases, it is a matter of being able to participate. It's hard to participate in a social encounter if you don't speak the language. Comprehend languages then allows participation. It's hard to participate in a social encounter when there is racial or economic prejudice afoot. Magically disguising oneself as the proper ethnicity or social class allows participation.

Let's say that the fighters are trying to get some information from a butler. F20 might try bribing the butler or intimidating him into giving up the information, and there's nothing wrong with that. F19/W1 can do those things and could also use Disguise Self to appear as someone to whom the butler would willingly give the information. Of course, this approach could fail (FW says something that gives him away), but if it succeeds it has the added advantage that the butler doesn't know that the fighter knows. Clearly advantageous.

Except that it's not advantageous; it's another just means of participating because the disguised fighter still has to get the disguise right. All you're doing is shifting which kind of check you are making.

The FW is just as good as the F at utilizing those mundane capabilities, but unlike the F he has an additional trump card in Feather Fall for when they fail. Clearly advantageous.

Yes, that's why I said feather fall was good. Congratulations, one spell out of an entire level proves advantages across the board (you know, assuming that board takes place above ground level).

 

[MechaPilot]

They don't suck up levels, but they can enable a character to functionally be higher level. I forget where I saw the quote, but the designers have stated that gear was left out of the level equation on purpose. That way, magic items don't simply keep characters on par, but make them better.

I assure you, if you give a level 3 party Armor of Invulnerability, a Belt of Cloud Giant Strength, a Staff of the Magi, and a Robe of the Archmagi, they will be significantly stronger than any normal level 3 party. While I can't say exactly how powerful they'd be, I'm quite certain they'd be superior to even a typical level 4 or 5 party.

Yes, some magic items can give you greater level equivalency (particularly in the case of low level characters). However, the ones that add breadth of ability generally do not.

Additionally, reconsider your example of a 1st level party with the magic items that you described. I mean, it seems clear to me that the magic items that you picked for the level one party in your example are intended to make them able to curb stomp adversaries by explicitly playing to the strengths of a party. Grant different magic items of similar rarity that play to the weaknesses of that 1st level party and then remake the comparison, because adding a single caster level to a lvl 19 fighter is effectively playing to the weaknesses of that character.

 

[MechaPilot]

As an aside, one of my house rules is that non-caster levels are counted as 1/4 for determining caster level when multiclassing.

It's mainly there to help cushion the blow if someone decides to play an unusual concept, like an Ogre Wizard.

I think that's cool of you.

 

[Fanaelialae]

If your AC is already advantageous, then buffing it for a round isn't going to be a substantial help. One of the things that makes shield so good for the unarmored caster is the caster's initially disadvantageous AC. Additionally, I call foul on the Action Surge bit; you're assuming the presence of a resource that may well have been exhausted earlier. Even if we assume that both parties have access to their action surges, the increased AC from shield is effectively negated by the advantage the full fighter could get from first shoving her enemy prone.

So you're saying that if your AC is good enough that you're only hit 70% of the time, then dropping that hit rate to 45% isn't advantageous? That doesn't track.

Sure, if you've boosted your AC into the mid 20s and you're attacked by goblins with a +4 to hit, Shield is pointless. Against an Ancient Dragon with a +15 to hit (or other powerful enemy) there is very much a point to it.

No need to call foul on Action Surge. Ignore it if you like. The Fighter 20 still has 4 attacks with a 45% chance to hit versus the Fighter 19/Wizard 1's 3 attacks with a 70% chance to hit. Still clearly advantageous. The F20 may very well still win the fight, but Shield gives the F/W a solid fighting chance. That's all I was trying to show. Remember, I agreed that the F20 is superior in terms of raw power. I'm merely showing how the F/W is 20th level in capability. Breadth vs depth.

My turn to call foul. If the F20 can knock the F/W prone, then the F/W can knock the F20 prone. Advantage gives the F/W a 91% chance to hit, whereas it only give the F20 a 69.75% chance to hit.

Additionally, expeditious retreat is a concentration spell. Sure, the fighter likely has no other spells she needs to concentrate on, but she also most likely has to put herself in harm's way in order to hurt her enemies, and that means the concentration is likely to break quickly even with the fighter's Con save proficiency.

So? The F/W is only using Expeditious Retreat to engage with the enemy so that he doesn't lose his first round of attacks. He's not likely to lose concentration when he casts it, since it's on his turn. If he maintains concentration, great, that's icing on the cake. If not, it's already done its job.

In some cases, it is a matter of being able to participate. It's hard to participate in a social encounter if you don't speak the language. Comprehend languages then allows participation. It's hard to participate in a social encounter when there is racial or economic prejudice afoot. Magically disguising oneself as the proper ethnicity or social class allows participation.

Sure, in some cases. And in some cases, like an anti-magic zone, having spells might not help at all. But there's a lot more to those utility spells than a simple pass/fail on being able to participate.

Except that it's not advantageous; it's another just means of participating because the disguised fighter still has to get the disguise right. All you're doing is shifting which kind of check you are making.

As I said, if you use Disguise Self and succeed, then the target doesn't know that you know. If you bribe or intimidate him, then he knows that you know. Knowledge is power, therefore it's reasonable that it's advantageous that he not know that you know.

Yes, that's why I said feather fall was good. Congratulations, one spell out of an entire level proves advantages across the board (you know, assuming that board takes place above ground level).

I've shown how a number of spells are advantageous. And there are many more I could demonstrate the advantage of having access to including: Alarm, Charm Person, Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Fog Cloud, Grease, Identify, Illusory Script, Jump, Longstrider, Protection from Good and Evil, Silent Image, Tenser's Floating Disk, and Unseen Servant. That doesn't include the wealth of cantrips that can be useful to even a 20th level adventurer, nor does it consider expanded spells from things like the Elemental Evil Player's Guide.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Yes, some magic items can give you greater level equivalency (particularly in the case of low level characters). However, the ones that add breadth of ability generally do not.

Additionally, reconsider your example of a 1st level party with the magic items that you described. I mean, it seems clear to me that the magic items that you picked for the level one party in your example are intended to make them able to curb stomp adversaries by explicitly playing to the strengths of a party. Grant different magic items of similar rarity that play to the weaknesses of that 1st level party and then remake the comparison, because adding a single caster level to a lvl 19 fighter is effectively playing to the weaknesses of that character.

Items that add breadth can make a character noticeably better. An example would be a strength based fighter with an item that grants flight, who would otherwise be disadvantaged when facing flying opponents. In a social campaign it might be Eyes of Charming instead.

The great thing about a level of wizard is that it's like gaining multiple magic items at once, because you have a spellbook. They're not the most powerful items per se, but if used correctly they can nonetheless make a significant difference.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I think that's cool of you.

Thanks! I don't want to discourage any wacky characters that my players might contrive. They're generally not the most efficient, but oftentimes they are the most fun.

 

[MechaPilot]

So you're saying that if your AC is good enough that you're only hit 70% of the time, then dropping that hit rate to 45% isn't advantageous? That doesn't track.

Sure, if you've boosted your AC into the mid 20s and you're attacked by goblins with a +4 to hit, Shield is pointless. Against an Ancient Dragon with a +15 to hit (or other powerful enemy) there is very much a point to it.

If I recall correctly, the designers have said that they intended dragons to be the strongest enemies in the game. Additionally, the Ancient red has a CR of 24. If you're fighting something whose CR is four greater than your character level could ever be (20 level cap), then every bonus HP or +1 of AC that you can get counts because you're already trying to somersault up an icy slope.

Remember, I agreed that the F20 is superior in terms of raw power. I'm merely showing how the F/W is 20th level in capability. Breadth vs depth.

I recall that. I am arguing that the added breadth doesn't equate to the value of a character level.

My turn to call foul. If the F20 can knock the F/W prone, then the F/W can knock the F20 prone. Advantage gives the F/W a 91% chance to hit, whereas it only give the F20 a 69.75% chance to hit.

Sure, but the F20 can shove a target prone to effectively eliminate the benefit of shield and then make the same compliment of attacks that the F19/W1 could.

 

[MechaPilot]

Items that add breadth can make a character noticeably better. An example would be a strength based fighter with an item that grants flight, who would otherwise be disadvantaged when facing flying opponents. In a social campaign it might be Eyes of Charming instead.

The great thing about a level of wizard is that it's like gaining multiple magic items at once, because you have a spellbook. They're not the most powerful items per se, but if used correctly they can nonetheless make a significant difference.

With an item that grants flight, I can agree with you (with winged flight however, I would have a totally different position because of the situational usefulness/uselessness of winged flight).

However, most magic items are not so dramatic as wingless flight. In fact, many magic items will play to a character's weaknesses (because a character can really have only so many strengths). These items add breadth to the character by increasing her minimal baseline of competence in those weak spots, but not such that it's equivalent to a character level.