D&D 5E Monsters as characters?

[Sunseeker]

Maybe the dragon knows or has created a ritual that actually creates weeping angel like minions. Gargoyles wouldn't be a bad place to start looking at stats for that kind of thing.

Stone Golems are also a good option and there's a manual for that!

 

[Fanaelialae]

I feel it's important to point out two things from the DMG:

2) The DMG says, and quite reasonably too, that adding some PC levels to certain monsters doesn't appreciably improve the monster. Adding 5 levels of wizard to a dragon is virtually meaningless, while adding those same levels to a kobold is a big change. This is an important thing to consider when deciding if a character should have to count its monstrous race as part of its levels.

That only applies to monster CR, which is based roughly on that creature's ability to function for ~3 rounds of combat.

In the case of PCs, you have to evaluate them based on the 3 pillars. Otherwise, adding a level of wizard on top of 19 levels of fighter would not make a PC 20th level. But according to the PHB, it does, because although it doesn't add much to that character in terms of DPR, it does add notable utility.

FWIW, I think that adding 5 levels of wizard on a dragon changes the CR depending on the spells. If the dragon is taking Shield, that's probably + 1 CR right there (assuming he has enough spell slots to cast it 3-4 times). On the other hand, if the dragon takes Identify and other utility magic, no CR change is required. Even movement enhancing spells (aside from Fly) don't affect CR.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

That only applies to monster CR, which is based roughly on that creature's ability to function for ~3 rounds of combat.

In the case of PCs, you have to evaluate them based on the 3 pillars. Otherwise, adding a level of wizard on top of 19 levels of fighter would not make a PC 20th level. But according to the PHB, it does, because although it doesn't add much to that character in terms of DPR, it does add notable utility.

FWIW, I think that adding 5 levels of wizard on a dragon changes the CR depending on the spells.

Yes, it's all about the particular spells. The books are a bit fuzzy (and contradictory), but I'm going with what I think was the intended "final word" on the subject. Essentially, whenever you add new abilities to a monster--including spells--you re-evaluate their CR based on what that adds to the creature according to normal CR calculations. So if a creature picks up mage armor (and can use it) you re-evaluate it's CR based on the increased effective AC. If it picks up something that lets it reliably reduce all damage by 50% for 3 rounds, you redetermine CR, treating it as if it has 50% more hit points.

Utility spells and abilities rarely affect CR (see that table of special abilities in the DMG for examples), even if they can be used creatively to increase a creature's combat power.

 

[MechaPilot]

That only applies to monster CR, which is based roughly on that creature's ability to function for ~3 rounds of combat.

In the case of PCs, you have to evaluate them based on the 3 pillars. Otherwise, adding a level of wizard on top of 19 levels of fighter would not make a PC 20th level. But according to the PHB, it does, because although it doesn't add much to that character in terms of DPR, it does add notable utility.

FWIW, I think that adding 5 levels of wizard on a dragon changes the CR depending on the spells. If the dragon is taking Shield, that's probably + 1 CR right there (assuming he has enough spell slots to cast it 3-4 times). On the other hand, if the dragon takes Identify and other utility magic, no CR change is required. Even movement enhancing spells (aside from Fly) don't affect CR.

Adding one level of pretty much any caster to a level 19 fighter does largely result in something that is not equivalent to a level 20 character. That's an inherent pitfall of the way caster and non-caster class levels interact in the 3e-style multiclassing that WotC chose to run with for 5e. Maybe if non-caster levels counted for one-third or one-quarter caster level when determining available spell slots, that would be different.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Adding one level of pretty much any caster to a level 19 fighter does largely result in something that is not equivalent to a level 20 character.

....in terms of DPR, no.

But in terms of accomplishing adventuring goals, it's a less clear failing. There's no level that it is useless to get mage hand, minor illusion, charm person, comprehend languages, disguise self, feather fall, shield, unseen servant....there's a lot those can add even at 20th level to a party that doesn't have 'em.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Adding one level of pretty much any caster to a level 19 fighter does largely result in something that is not equivalent to a level 20 character. That's an inherent pitfall of the way caster and non-caster class levels interact in the 3e-style multiclassing that WotC chose to run with for 5e. Maybe if non-caster levels counted for one-third or one-quarter caster level when determining available spell slots, that would be different.

It's a matter of breadth vs depth. A Fighter 20 will have a clear DPR advantage over a Fighter 19/Wizard 1. However (assuming that the F19/W1 isn't already an Eldritch Knight), that level of Wizard gives the Fighter the ability to cast Shield, which could easily result in 2 rounds of whiffing for the F20 if the two face off. Expeditious Retreat can enable the the FW to attack in the first round of combat, whereas the F might have to waste his action to Dash up to the enemy (or ready an attack and wait for the enemy to come to him).

That doesn't even consider the added utility for the social and exploration pillars, as KM says, where having access to spells like Disguise Self and Comprehend Languages can be incredibly useful. While the F would probably survive a 200 ft fall off a cliff unless badly injured, it's a total non-issue for the F/W if he has Feather Fall prepared.

I don't deny that in terms of raw power the F20 is ahead (Extra Attack 3 is a top notch level 20 ability). However I do believe that there are situations where, despite this, the F19/W1 will be superior. I would say that a F/W is a 20th level character in terms of efficacy, just as the F is. There's simply a variance between their raw power and utility.

 

[MechaPilot]

It's a matter of breadth vs depth. A Fighter 20 will have a clear DPR advantage over a Fighter 19/Wizard 1. However (assuming that the F19/W1 isn't already an Eldritch Knight), that level of Wizard gives the Fighter the ability to cast Shield, which could easily result in 2 rounds of whiffing for the F20 if the two face off. Expeditious Retreat can enable the the FW to attack in the first round of combat, whereas the F might have to waste his action to Dash up to the enemy (or ready an attack and wait for the enemy to come to him).

That doesn't even consider the added utility for the social and exploration pillars, as KM says, where having access to spells like Disguise Self and Comprehend Languages can be incredibly useful. While the F would probably survive a 200 ft fall off a cliff unless badly injured, it's a total non-issue for the F/W if he has Feather Fall prepared.

I don't deny that in terms of raw power the F20 is ahead (Extra Attack 3 is a top notch level 20 ability). However I do believe that there are situations where, despite this, the F19/W1 will be superior. I would say that a F/W is a 20th level character in terms of efficacy, just as the F is. There's simply a variance between their raw power and utility.

Generally-speaking, the Ftr 19/Wiz 1 will have more productive things to do with her actions (of all varieties) than spellcasting. As has been mentioned before, things like Shield and Expeditious retreat are most likely to come into play when the character has already effectively lost and is looking to escape with her life.

While I agree that Disguise Self and Comprehend Languages can be useful, they also seem like things that simply get the character the ability to participate in a social encounter. And, let's face it, the player should already have some means of participating without those spells.

I will grant you that feather fall is handy, but there are several ways to avoid a fall to begin with that are all well within the reach of mundane capabilities.

It's also worth pointing out that power and breadth of ability are hard to consider because of the differing nature of people's campaigns. In a dungeon crawl campaign, the social pillar can be virtually non-existent. Likewise, in the courtly intrigue campaign that I ran the exploration pillar almost exclusively consisted of hiding and sneaking so you could overhear plots and various nefarious intentions.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Generally-speaking, the Ftr 19/Wiz 1 will have more productive things to do with her actions (of all varieties) than spellcasting.

Action economy is only really relevant in combat, and it's a given that 1 level of wizard isn't really increasing combat much. There's still corner cases where it could be effective, but that's not what you're taking a single level of wizard for when you're a 19th level fighter.

While I agree that Disguise Self and Comprehend Languages can be useful, they also seem like things that simply get the character the ability to participate in a social encounter. And, let's face it, the player should already have some means of participating without those spells.

I will grant you that feather fall is handy, but there are several ways to avoid a fall to begin with that are all well within the reach of mundane capabilities.

None of these spells are requirements, but the point is they're all useful, even at 20th level, for a PC. They don't add anything to a monster's CR because monster CR is a combat number metric, not a holistic character metric.

It's also worth pointing out that power and breadth of ability are hard to consider because of the differing nature of people's campaigns. In a dungeon crawl campaign, the social pillar can be virtually non-existent. Likewise, in the courtly intrigue campaign that I ran the exploration pillar almost exclusively consisted of hiding and sneaking so you could overhear plots and various nefarious intentions.

Sure thing, but this is why a PC needs to be holistic (across all 3 pillars), and a monster doesn't.

 

[MechaPilot]

None of these spells are requirements, but the point is they're all useful, even at 20th level, for a PC. They don't add anything to a monster's CR because monster CR is a combat number metric, not a holistic character metric.

Sure, but useful doesn't translate into level equivalency.

Large amounts of wealth is useful. It can grant a lot of combat utility (hired goons), and it can grant a lot of out of combat utility (hired translators, hired scouts, trained monkeys to poke at at every dungeon surface with 10' poles, etc), but it has no level equivalency.

Magic items can also be very useful but they don't suck up character levels to equip them.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Generally-speaking, the Ftr 19/Wiz 1 will have more productive things to do with her actions (of all varieties) than spellcasting. As has been mentioned before, things like Shield and Expeditious retreat are most likely to come into play when the character has already effectively lost and is looking to escape with her life.

I disagree. If you have access to spells like Shield and Expeditious Retreat, they can of course be used to make escape easier. However, that's a waste in my opinion (at that point you're basically going into an encounter expecting to lose).

Shield is an amazing spell for a fighter, given their already advantageous AC. Let's assume that the Fighter 20 and the Fighter 19/Wizard 1 are facing off and both have a Strength of 20 and that their magic bonuses for weapons and armor cancel out. Assuming Plate armor (AC 18), they both have a +11 to hit, giving them a 70% chance to hit each other. Now the F/W wizard casts shield. Suddenly, the F's chance of hitting for that round drops to 45%. The he F gets 4 attacks at 45%, versus the F/W's 3 attacks at 70%. Now the F has a choice to make. Does he use action surge now and take his extra attacks at the reduced hit rate, or wait for a round when shield is not active? The F/W, meanwhile, can go nuts on the F with action surge. I don't see how anyone can consider that anything less than a decisive advantage in combat. Granted, this means that the F/W isn't going to be able to make an OA this round, but the odds are he wouldn't need to anyway.

It's the same with expeditious retreat. If an encounter starts beyond their base speed, the F has to either Dash (which means he can't use that action to attack) or ready an action and wait for the enemy to come to him (meaning he only gets one attack). The F/W can use his bonus action to cast Expeditious Retreat, potentially allowing him to close the distance and make his full 3 attacks. He'll lose an attack if he's a TWF, but otherwise what does he need his bonus action for? Being able to make 3 attacks in the first round is clearly superior to making 0 or 1 attack.

Clearly, these spells have significant advantages beyond that of just retreating.

While I agree that Disguise Self and Comprehend Languages can be useful, they also seem like things that simply get the character the ability to participate in a social encounter. And, let's face it, the player should already have some means of participating without those spells.

It's not a matter of being unable to participate. It's a matter of having the ability to approach the situation from a completely new angle.

Let's say that the fighters are trying to get some information from a butler. F20 might try bribing the butler or intimidating him into giving up the information, and there's nothing wrong with that. F19/W1 can do those things and could also use Disguise Self to appear as someone to whom the butler would willingly give the information. Of course, this approach could fail (FW says something that gives him away), but if it succeeds it has the added advantage that the butler doesn't know that the fighter knows. Clearly advantageous.

I will grant you that feather fall is handy, but there are several ways to avoid a fall to begin with that are all well within the reach of mundane capabilities.

The FW is just as good as the F at utilizing those mundane capabilities, but unlike the F he has an additional trump card in Feather Fall for when they fail. Clearly advantageous.

It's also worth pointing out that power and breadth of ability are hard to consider because of the differing nature of people's campaigns. In a dungeon crawl campaign, the social pillar can be virtually non-existent. Likewise, in the courtly intrigue campaign that I ran the exploration pillar almost exclusively consisted of hiding and sneaking so you could overhear plots and various nefarious intentions.

Completely true. But it's true of many character choices. If you're running a hack and slash dungeon crawl, an Evoker is probably going to be notably superior to an Enchanter. The opposite is true in a combat light, heavily politicized/social campaign. In the latter case, the majority of fighter abilities will rarely see any use at all.