D&D 5E Monsters as characters?

[FormerlyHemlock]

Under the right circumstances, possibly. However, a dragon typically has far more effective things to do to a party of PCs or a single PC with its action than casting a low level spell.

Shield, Expeditious Retreat, and Misty Step don't cost an action. Reaction/bonus/bonus respectively. Find Familiar is another useful one that doesn't cost an action, although the dragon probably uses it more strategically than tactically anyway.

Even 2 levels of wizard means up to 4 rounds of +5 AC, which turns the dragon from "meh" to "whoa". It probably shuts down GWM/Sharpshooter, for instance. Similarly, Expeditious Retreat will prevent kiting even under all but the most extreme conditions, and if things go bad it could mean the difference between death and "lives to fight another day." That's a lot of impact for 4 spell slots.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

If you haven't already, read the thread in 77IM's downloadable dragon-classes document. It addresses a lot of these points, the biggest one seeming to be that the CR for a dragon assumes a lot of things. Assumes spellcasting, assumes a lair, likely even assumed minions (since the rules explicitly state that if additional monsters are well below the other challenge ratings, their CR is to be ignored in the calculations). As a solo, a dragon isn't that great of a monster.

I think as well that it's a question of "how much?". If a dragon gains two levels of wizard....that's not going to do very much for the dragon. If the dragon gains 10 levels of wizard, or shoot any class, that's going to be a big deal.

I haven't seen the thread.

I can't agree about two levels not doing much. Wizards have some pretty nifty low-level spells. But sure, yeah, five levels of wizard (Blink + Blur + Shield) would be even better. The 20th level Sorlock goes from inflicting 70.8 damage per round to 42.8 just from Shield alone (unless it gets Counterspelled), and then Blur cuts that to 17.32 and Blink cuts it again to 8.66 (although that does interfere with Legendary Actions). Five levels of wizard is a massive defensive advantage. Even two is pretty good though.

 

[MechaPilot]

Shield, Expeditious Retreat, and Misty Step don't cost an action. Reaction/bonus/bonus respectively. Find Familiar is another useful one that doesn't cost an action, although the dragon probably uses it more strategically than tactically anyway.

Even 2 levels of wizard means up to 4 rounds of +5 AC, which turns the dragon from "meh" to "whoa". It probably shuts down GWM/Sharpshooter, for instance. Similarly, Expeditious Retreat will prevent kiting even under all but the most extreme conditions, and if things go bad it could mean the difference between death and "lives to fight another day." That's a lot of impact for 4 spell slots.

Let's be clear that you are separating me from the variant rule for dragons discussion you are also having with shidaku. I am talking about dragons (well, monsters in general) actually picking up class levels.

First, abilities that help a monster get away in one piece don't actually help the monster win. Last I checked, causing a monster to flee for its life is considered a win condition in D&D and will get you XP for defeating that monster.

Secondly, who says you can't wait out a spell? It involves more strategy on the part of the players/characters, but I'd hardly consider that a bad thing. So you run/hide for a few rounds. Or, in the case of concentration spells you try to break the creature's concentration (which I assume would be a natural side effect of the PCs attempting to slay the dragon by hurting it).

And finally, D&D has a hard time doing "the villain gets away so you can fight it later." If something improves that capability in a truly important foe, that's a good thing in my eyes because it allows for ongoing villainous characters.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Let's be clear that you are separating me from the variant rule for dragons discussion you are also having with shidaku. I am talking about dragons (well, monsters in general) actually picking up class levels.

First, abilities that help a monster get away in one piece don't actually help the monster win. Last I checked, causing a monster to flee for its life is considered a win condition in D&D and will get you XP for defeating that monster.

Secondly, who says you can't wait out a spell? It involves more strategy on the part of the players/characters, but I'd hardly consider that a bad thing. So you run/hide for a few rounds. Or, in the case of concentration spells you try to break the creature's concentration (which I assume would be a natural side effect of the PCs attempting to slay the dragon by hurting it).

And finally, D&D has a hard time doing "the villain gets away so you can fight it later." If something improves that capability in a truly important foe, that's a good thing in my eyes because it allows for ongoing villainous characters.

Points 1 and 3 are related: yes, I agree that that's a good thing if the bad guys gets away. And yes, it's fine that the PCs get experience for driving it off... assuming that that's really what happened, as opposed to it simply backing off for 60 seconds to recharge its breath weapon and wait for YOUR spells to expire.

Point 2: no one said you can't wait out a spell by running/hiding, but that's where mobility via Expeditious Retreat makes the dragon more deadly. It's harder to run and hide from something that can move 280 feet per round. That's not fast by modern standards (32 mph) but compared to D&D humans who run at 6.8 mph it's plenty. Or it can move 160 feet (also plenty) and then claw/claw/bite/tail/tail/tail you.

I agree that adding wizard levels to a dragon is a good change and makes it a better monster and a better villain. I just don't think it's a negligible change the way the DMG does.

 

[MechaPilot]

I agree that adding wizard levels to a dragon is a good change and makes it a better monster and a better villain. I just don't think it's a negligible change the way the DMG does.

I wouldn't say that it makes for a better monster; better can only really be determined once you apply a purpose.

If the purpose is to be a greater threat in combat, then I think it doesn't achieve that goal and is therefore not better.

If the purpose is the ability to be a recurring villain, then I think those magical abilities can certainly help.

If the purpose is to make it a better plotter and schemer type of villain, then you really need to add more than just a couple levels of wizard to make that happen (you need to get to the good information gathering spells for that).

In a similar manner, adding a level of fighter or rogue really is not going to help either. As I see it, adding levels of fighter to a high CR monster is a waste unless you are going to give them at least enough to get the first subclass abilities.



But, to roll this discussion back around to monster PCs, consider the adding of monster abilities to characters.

Since I am currently working on a homebrew medusa race, let's look at the medusa as listed in the MM. We are talking about a CR 6 creature with relatively few special abilities: petrifying gaze (this is the big one), snake hair, and darkvision. I am not counting multiattack as a special ability that the character would inherit; I am counting it as effectively being part of the creature's class-replacement abilities.

Darvision isn't really an issue (a ton of races have it).

Snake hair is good, but I don't see it as being any better than a damaging cantrip delivered via a melee attack. I would also consider the MM Medusa's ability to use it as an attack instead of as an action as part of its class-replacement features.

Now, the elephant in the room is the petrifying gaze. How can that ever be appropriate for a PC? Well, the ability gives an out that just about everyone is likely to take (the averting eyes option). So, unless the target is forced to look at the medusa's eyes the ability equates to imposing disadvantage on some enemies within 30 feet (enemies behind the medusa most certainly wouldn't face the disadvantage problem).

This seems to be a very strong ability, but the ultimate question is one of scaling. What if the medusa's petrification DC never rises above the 14 listed in the MM entry? Beyond a certain point, most enemies are going to make that save (Con score, so far as I've been able to tell, is one of those stats that really tends to rise as CRs increase), especially the ones proficient with that save. And, the 30 foot range means that many monsters will be able to engage the medusa before its petrifying gaze can come into play.

I would consider that adding all three of these abilities to a character that is at least 10th level would do next to nothing to increase the power level of that character.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

1.) I'm baffled that you think adding a couple of levels of wizard doesn't make the dragon a greater threat in combat. Why not? You don't think defense and mobility are significant components of threat level?

2.) RE: Medusa, petrifying gaze on a PC would be quite strong. Not only would many monsters not know to avert their gaze, but PCs also have options for manipulating surprise (Pass Without Trace, Stealth proficiency, Stealth Expertise, Enhance Ability (Dexterity)) which can prevent opponents from exercising any "look away" option. 30 foot range is very close, yes, but sadly there is a large class of monsters who struggle to engage anything beyond 30 foot range anyway. As far as saving throws go: Mind Flayers have +1 to Con, Death Knights have +5 (and magic resistance), Beholders have +4, Vampires have +4 (and legendary resistance), Demiliches have +6 (and legendary resistance). If you gave me free Petrifying gaze, with no cost even to my action economy, I would say "Sweet!" and enjoy getting extra advantage against those monsters without worrying too much about the monsters like dragons who are mostly immune. I wouldn't call that "next to nothing."

However, if you're just arguing that it doesn't increase power more than other racial packages like half-elves and variant humans... I might buy that, if the Medusa didn't get the standard +2/+1 ability score package of most other races.

Also, to be clear: the question of whether I think Petrifying Gaze is useful at high level, and whether I would allow someone to play one, are independent questions. My position on one cannot be inferred from my position on the other.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

One of the things that is worth examining when trying to determine a monster's effective level is exactly how the CR of monsters is determined, as explained in the DMG. Basically, it is based almost entirely on how much damage they can put out and absorb over the first 3 rounds of combat. Nothing else matters for CR. Even the features that don't directly influence it (such as flight) are evaluated by the designers based on how they effectively change the monster's offensive or defensive capabilities. If they don't seem to, they are ignored.

3e did something similar, but it seemed to give more weight to things other than hp. In 5e, it's all about the hp.

So in attempting to evaluate a monster and determine what their PC approximate level would be, you have to realize that there are a lot of features some monsters have that are pretty darn awesome, but have 0 effect on their CR. Things like change shape. Or permanent mind blank. The good thing is that at least the DMG tells you what does and does not affect CR. So for some monsters that means you need to use a different level determiner than just using CR.

For most monsters (giants, dragons, etc) I think you can just treat CR as level, let them take a background for the skills and tools/languages, let them rearrange stats, and call it good.

When you get into monsters that don't work so well that way is generally when they end up with the ability to replicate higher level spell effects, or--and here is a huge one--when they have immunity to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage. (Or all of those put together, like the crazy good CR 4 couatl.) That is an ability that is way more useful for a PC, because you are rarely fighting creatures with magic weapons. Without some adjustment, a CR 2-5 monster could be immune to a large percentage of everything you fight for most of your adventuring career.

By the way, I'd love to hear about people's conversion methods. I don't have one yet.

Using the variant rule, the dragon can already do that. So giving them additional spellcaster levels does not substantially improve their spellcasting ability (Spells per day=cha mod, maximum spell level=CR/3, ignore material components). The rule is unfortunately not any more specific than that. which could lead to wide interpretations of either a dragon can cast ANY spell, but only up to 4 of them a day or it only knows 4 spells, which it can cast any of them up to 4 times per day. It also does not specify which spell list they can or cannot cast from.

So by the variant rules already, a dragon can potentially know every spell of potency up to 1/3rd its CR. Frightening Presence+Cloudkill+Insect Plague+any other combination of control or offensive AOEs and yeah, there goes the party.

I just assumed that the intent was that they would know any 4 specific spells of the appropriate levels. I don't think I'd seriously entertain arguments to the contrary.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I just assumed that the intent was that they would know any 4 specific spells of the appropriate levels. I don't think I'd seriously entertain arguments to the contrary.

Concur. Four spells, can cast each one once per day. I don't see any other way to read the variant description.

 

[Sunseeker]

I just assumed that the intent was that they would know any 4 specific spells of the appropriate levels. I don't think I'd seriously entertain arguments to the contrary.

I suspect that is the case as well, but I feel it is less than clear on the matter. But this may be purposeful on the basis that as rather long-lived creatures, a dragon who dedicates themselves to learning spells in the same manner the party Wizard does could arguably know quite a lot MORE spells.

Also, I made a 20-level class for dragon PCs which you may be interested in:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?438478-Dragon-Player-Characters

*fixed broken quote

 

[MechaPilot]

1.) I'm baffled that you think adding a couple of levels of wizard doesn't make the dragon a greater threat in combat. Why not? You don't think defense and mobility are significant components of threat level?

Defense and mobility are almost universally good, but getting these things from spells can be situational.

You mentioned Expeditious Retreat. That's a concentration spell. Concentration spells are troublesome because each of the PCs will generally be intent on dealing damage to the dragon, and each hit means an opportunity to break concentration.

You mentioned Shield. Sure, Shield is great. It buys you one turn of improved AC, but its value is far greater as an aid to fleeing without being killed. Additionally, if the dragon has the opportunity to do just about anything else with its reaction, it is usually better off doing that instead.

You mentioned Misty Step. Misty Step looks to me to be a total waste of effort for a dragon (especially if it has anything else to do with its bonus action).

The bulk of these spells seem like they are only useful to the dragon once the dragon has been virtually defeated by the party and is looking to flee for its life.

2.) RE: Medusa, petrifying gaze on a PC would be quite strong. Not only would many monsters not know to avert their gaze, but PCs also have options for manipulating surprise (Pass Without Trace, Stealth proficiency, Stealth Expertise, Enhance Ability (Dexterity)) which can prevent opponents from exercising any "look away" option. 30 foot range is very close, yes, but sadly there is a large class of monsters who struggle to engage anything beyond 30 foot range anyway. As far as saving throws go: Mind Flayers have +1 to Con, Death Knights have +5 (and magic resistance), Beholders have +4, Vampires have +4 (and legendary resistance), Demiliches have +6 (and legendary resistance). If you gave me free Petrifying gaze, with no cost even to my action economy, I would say "Sweet!" and enjoy getting extra advantage against those monsters without worrying too much about the monsters like dragons who are mostly immune. I wouldn't call that "next to nothing."

I don't buy the "many monsters not knowing to avert their gaze" bit. If we assume for the sake of discussion that mythology is accurate, there has been one Medusa on Earth and virtually everyone knows you can't look her in the face/eyes. How much more prevalent would this knowledge be if medusas actually existed as a race that populated parts of the world instead of there being but one medusa?

I consider the lack of an action cost to be part of the MM medusa's class-replacement abilities (the way I see it, the MM creatures get certain abilities that help them remain relevant in the face of enemies with class levels. Multiattack is a great example of this). I would charge a PC a reaction for it (especially since the MM says that it is an activated ability by the medusa and not an always-on effect of just anyone looking her in the eyes.

However, if you're just arguing that it doesn't increase power more than other racial packages like half-elves and variant humans... I might buy that, if the Medusa didn't get the standard +2/+1 ability score package of most other races.

No, I'm not really arguing that. I think several monster abilities need to have the class-replacement aspect excised before those races are suitable for use as PC races, but that once those class-replacement aspects are removed the monster would be suitable for a PC race, which includes them getting the standard +2/+1 stat increases.