D&D 5E Monsters as characters?

[FormerlyHemlock]

RE: Medusas, I don't know what "class-replacement aspects are," but as long as you're not saying that those abilities are worthless to 10th+ level characters and should be free, I'm good. It sounds like you're saying that a Medusa loses some class features to compensate.

I don't see Perytons and Fire Elementals and Mephits and Tyrannosaurs sitting the campfire at night talking about monster lore, so as far as I'm concerned there would be monsters that don't know to avert their gaze, but okay, whatever. You're probably thinking about high-end monsters like beholders and liches, and those guys are smart enough that I'd give them the same advantages I'd give to PCs, which probably means "you automatically recognize this thing as a Medusa by its snake hair (unless it's disguised via Disguise Self) and know that bad things happen if you look directly at it". [It just occurred to me: disguising yourself as a Medusa is a terrific use of a Disguise Self spell.]

RE: dragons again. Here's the thing about dragons: for the most part, they don't have anything good to do with their bonus action, or usually even their reaction, so the Shield/Misty Step/Expeditious Retreat is pure gravy from an action economy perspective. I don't think you're correct about Shield being useful only when fleeing. An adult dragon's damage output is about 100 points of damage per round, so three or four rounds of taking half damage from the Sorlock is at least 200 extra points of damage. Has nothing to do with fleeing except that it delays the point at which you would need to flee. Misty Step is much more situational, but useful for escaping Webs and grapples, or dumping a melee fighter off your back if he mounted you per DMG rules. Not that the dragon couldn't do that anyway, but with Misty Step he can do it with a bonus action instead of an action, and save the action for breathing 91 points of fire all over a clump of enemies.

Concentration requirement on Expeditious Retreat isn't a real cost for a dragon with 2 wizard levels (since there's no opportunity cost in the form of other Concentration spells he'd rather have up). Yes, a PC can hit the dragon and break Expeditious Retreat if the dragon rolls a 1 on his Con save (I believe adult reds are +16 to Con saves), and if so, the dragon now has to spend another spell slot and a bonus action to re-establish the spell. (Or just not even bother to re-cast it, if he's already closed with the party.) Having to re-cast the spell reduces the number of Shield spells the dragon will be casting this combat, but other than that, Concentration is basically a non-issue.

The bulk of these spells seem like they are only useful to the dragon once the dragon has been virtually defeated by the party and is looking to flee for its life.

Ah, but here's the thing: if there are 18 crummy spells that don't matter, and 2 spells that make a dragon wizard 30% more dangerous, and the dragon (like other wizards) gets to choose its spells freely... then it's invalid to conclude that 2 levels of wizard don't make the dragon more dangerous, because wizards don't pick the worst options, they pick the best. The DMG is wrongheaded on this one.

 

[MechaPilot]

RE: Medusas, I don't know what "class-replacement aspects are," but as long as you're not saying that those abilities are worthless to 10th+ level characters and should be free, I'm good. It sounds like you're saying that a Medusa loses some class features to compensate.

"Class-replacement" abilities is a name that I have given to certain abilities that mimic things you get from A) levelling-up in classes, or that B) improve on abilities that would be acceptable as a feature of a standard race.

For example, the type A "class-replacement" abilities of monsters include: HPs, proficiency bonus, natural weapons and armor, multiattack, etc. Type B "class-replacement" abilities can be trickier to evaluate. Look at the medusa's petrifying gaze; as you mentioned, it has no action cost. That is clearly an improvement over what would be acceptable as part of a PC racial feature, therefore I classify it as a Type B "class-replacement" ability. Another example of this that is blatantly obvious is the Hobgoblin's Martial Advantage.

 

[MechaPilot]

[It just occurred to me: disguising yourself as a Medusa is a terrific use of a Disguise Self spell.]

Yes. It definitely is a good use of that spell.

RE: dragons again. Here's the thing about dragons: for the most part, they don't have anything good to do with their bonus action, or usually even their reaction, so the Shield/Misty Step/Expeditious Retreat is pure gravy from an action economy perspective. I don't think you're correct about Shield being useful only when fleeing. An adult dragon's damage output is about 100 points of damage per round, so three or four rounds of taking half damage from the Sorlock is at least 200 extra points of damage. Has nothing to do with fleeing except that it delays the point at which you would need to flee. Misty Step is much more situational, but useful for escaping Webs and grapples, or dumping a melee fighter off your back if he mounted you per DMG rules. Not that the dragon couldn't do that anyway, but with Misty Step he can do it with a bonus action instead of an action, and save the action for breathing 91 points of fire all over a clump of enemies.

I think that any round the dragon can make an opportunity attack is a round in which it has a better use of its reaction than casting a spell (because damaging an enemy is just as good if not better than mitigating the damage you'll take, except for when you are so low on HPs that you are already effectively defeated).

Regarding the dragon not having anything that it can do on a bonus action, this is a function of how you are modifying the dragon. If you are adding spells to the dragon, then you are modifying the creature just as you would be if you gave it feats or other special abilities. So I do maintain my position that a dragon is generally better off doing anything else with its bonus action than casting a spell.

Of course, and I forget which poster said as much, a caster class is generally a waste of class levels on a monster. The dragon would be far better served by taking three levels of fighter and snatching up the champion subclass, or by taking levels of barbarian so it can rage.

Concentration requirement on Expeditious Retreat isn't a real cost for a dragon with 2 wizard levels (since there's no opportunity cost in the form of other Concentration spells he'd rather have up). Yes, a PC can hit the dragon and break Expeditious Retreat if the dragon rolls a 1 on his Con save (I believe adult reds are +16 to Con saves), and if so, the dragon now has to spend another spell slot and a bonus action to re-establish the spell. (Or just not even bother to re-cast it, if he's already closed with the party.) Having to re-cast the spell reduces the number of Shield spells the dragon will be casting this combat, but other than that, Concentration is basically a non-issue.

Isn't the DC of a Concentration save against damage equal to the greater of 10 or half the damage taken? If we're talking about a high CR dragon (which I thought we were), then PCs facing that dragon should be able to put out quite a bit of damage.

Ah, but here's the thing: if there are 18 crummy spells that don't matter, and 2 spells that make a dragon wizard 30% more dangerous, and the dragon (like other wizards) gets to choose its spells freely... then it's invalid to conclude that 2 levels of wizard don't make the dragon more dangerous, because wizards don't pick the worst options, they pick the best. The DMG is wrongheaded on this one.

I disagree. I think that a dragon is likely to think quite highly of itself. It may well forego combat magics for spells intended for use outside of combat. I think a dragon will scoff at expeditious retreat because it can fly. I think a dragon will snort a small puff of flame at the notion that burning hands has any value to it. I think a dragon may even bristle at the notion of having to flee, or that its hide isn't strong enough to protect it from the humanoids that crawl across the world like ants.

Additionally, even if the dragon does pick the absolute best spells possible for the lowest levels of spells, the effects are largely negligible.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Isn't the DC of a Concentration save against damage equal to the greater of 10 or half the damage taken? If we're talking about a high CR dragon (which I thought we were), then PCs facing that dragon should be able to put out quite a bit of damage.

We've mostly been talking about high CR dragons up until now (adult reds have been mentioned more than once), but one the one hand, that does not necessarily imply high-level PCs fighting it; on the other hand, even high-level PCs don't necessarily do more than 34 points of damage in a single hit--multiple attacks are more common than large single attacks--and an adult red taking 34 points of damage fails Concentration only on a 1; on the gripping hand, even if he loses Concentration on Expeditious Retreat all it costs him is a single spell slot and a bonus action (which he wasn't doing anything with anyway), if he even bothers to recast it. As I said before, if he's already closed with the party, Expeditious Retreat has already done its job, and maybe he'd rather spend the spell slot on Shield.

Additionally, even if the dragon does pick the absolute best spells possible for the lowest levels of spells, the effects are largely negligible.

Well, clearly you believe that. I happen to think that there's a big difference for an adult red dragon taking 79 points of damage from the level 17 Sharpshooter and Sorlock instead of 143 points of damage, and being able to Misty Step through the Wall of Force or Forcecube with which the wizard attempted to trap it. To me, that isn't negligible. YMMV though. At this point clearly I'm not going to say anything that hasn't been said before.

 

[Sunseeker]

I disagree. I think that a dragon is likely to think quite highly of itself. It may well forego combat magics for spells intended for use outside of combat. I think a dragon will scoff at expeditious retreat because it can fly. I think a dragon will snort a small puff of flame at the notion that burning hands has any value to it. I think a dragon may even bristle at the notion of having to flee, or that its hide isn't strong enough to protect it from the humanoids that crawl across the world like ants.

Additionally, even if the dragon does pick the absolute best spells possible for the lowest levels of spells, the effects are largely negligible.

I think what it really comes down to is the sort of game you're going to play. Are you going to play a game where everyone, enemies included, is trying their hardest to dump out the biggest numbers every turn, or are you playing a game where utility and creativity are more "fun" and useful?

Since I'm playing a Bronze Dragon and they apparently have a love for sculpture, I took the spells Fabricate and Animate Objects, neither are particularly powerful abilities, but good utility, very flavorful, which brought me to Control Water and Telekinesis. All good flavor, all good utility, but none exactly designed for powergaming.

 

[MechaPilot]

I think what it really comes down to is the sort of game you're going to play. Are you going to play a game where everyone, enemies included, is trying their hardest to dump out the biggest numbers every turn, or are you playing a game where utility and creativity are more "fun" and useful?

I agree. However, I think that even if the dragon is attempting to unload the largest truckload of damage possible, the lowest level spells will not add substantially to the dragon's damage output.

Since I'm playing a Bronze Dragon and they apparently have a love for sculpture, I took the spells Fabricate and Animate Objects, neither are particularly powerful abilities, but good utility, very flavorful, which brought me to Control Water and Telekinesis. All good flavor, all good utility, but none exactly designed for powergaming.

Sounds very cool. It could also be incredibly useful if the dragon were to (by spell, magic item, or otherwise) have the ability to appear to be a statue.

 

[Sunseeker]

I agree. However, I think that even if the dragon is attempting to unload the largest truckload of damage possible, the lowest level spells will not add substantially to the dragon's damage output.

No, though emdw45 is right that dragons really have nothing to do with their bonus action, so being able to do something simple like Misty Step, especially if the dragon is playing ranged, would be quite useful, but at low class levels, they're only going to be able to do that once, maybe twice. It's not a good regular reparable effect comparable to say, Flurry of Blows.

Sounds very cool. It could also be incredibly useful if the dragon were to (by spell, magic item, or otherwise) have the ability to appear to be a statue.

Stoneskin, while also being incredibly useful, could fit the bill depending on how you roll the visuals. Does your skin take on a stone-like appearance? If so, presto, now hold very, very still.

 

[MechaPilot]

Stoneskin, while also being incredibly useful, could fit the bill depending on how you roll the visuals. Does your skin take on a stone-like appearance? If so, presto, now hold very, very still.

Sort of begs the question of how long can a dragon hold its breath. I'd imagine that the breathing of a dragon would be hard to muffle enough to pass as a statue.

 

[Sunseeker]

Sort of begs the question of how long can a dragon hold its breath. I'd imagine that the breathing of a dragon would be hard to muffle enough to pass as a statue.

Well, for holding your breath I use the same rules as swimming, timeXcon mod. A stealth roll can also be used to breathe softly, even for a dragon.

Personally now I'm picturing a dragon who pretends to be a statue within their lair, while simultaneously animating statues Weeping Angel style to torment the players in your completely un-lit lair.

 

[MechaPilot]

Well, for holding your breath I use the same rules as swimming, timeXcon mod. A stealth roll can also be used to breathe softly, even for a dragon.

Personally now I'm picturing a dragon who pretends to be a statue within their lair, while simultaneously animating statues Weeping Angel style to torment the players in your completely un-lit lair.

Maybe the dragon knows or has created a ritual that actually creates weeping angel like minions. Gargoyles wouldn't be a bad place to start looking at stats for that kind of thing.