D&D 5E Race Class Combos, Design, Roleplaying and the fear of the new

Note that my comments below are referring to truly alien species - Elves and Dwarves etc., while different to us, aren't as 'alien' as all that.

shidaku said:

I'm going to... spitball a little here ... at Sci-Fi/Sy-Fy that promotes this line of thought.

I've always found this line of thought odd because it seems to ignore the fundamental similarities between humans and aliens. It's a similarity we even ignore between humans and animals, so it's not entirely unexpected that when we see creatures that look totally different than us, we must assume that they ARE totally different from us. But the underlying reality is that aliens probably require the same fundamental elements that humans do. At a bare minimum, food and a life-sustaining environment. Now what qualifies as "food" and "life sustaining environment" may be a million different things, but the reactions to the need, to the possession, to the loss of those things is arguably (and I've never met an alien mind you) fundamentally the same.

When a human is hungry, the hungrier they get the less picky they become about what they will eat. Why would aliens be any different?

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Up to this point I think you're pretty much spot on the mark as regards any species. However...

Aliens may experience lesser or greater degrees of "greed" when they have food, depending on biological and cultural needs and norms but they'll still have them.

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This assumes - rightly or wrongly - that the species is by nature competitive rather than co-operative. Here on Earth even those species that are within themselves co-operative (e.g. ants) still compete with other species for territory, resources, etc.; but who's to say that in an alien environment co-operation doesn't extend much further?

Any intelligent species is likely to currently or historically have worshipped gods

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This one's on even shakier ground. An alien species might for whatever reason never have thought of the concept of spirituality or soul or much metaphysical stuff at all - particularly if said species is steeped in magic which can in effect be used to explain pretty much anything. Another approach may be that a species simply thinks of itself as there to be worshipped by others.

and have created cultures and civilizations. They may have different philosophical approaches to the construction of these civilizations,

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Quite likely, yes, but not guaranteed. The creation of what we know as civilization is simply an exercise in co-operative means of helping further each other's existence - a rising tide lifts all boats. Creation of culture, on the other hand, assumes regular and repeated social interaction within the species, and that's not a given at all particularly if the species is very limited in number and widely scattered.

Now, if we want to talk about truly alien creatures in D&D, we can start with Illithids and Warforged. We could probably even extend the concept to dragons. But anything that fits into the medium size category and has a roughly human build is going to be roughly human in lifestyle out of simple biological necessity.

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Well, Illithids are medium-sized humanoid-built creatures...doesn't mean anything else about them is remotely close to anything we can understand...

You missed one other underpinning that in some form will in theory apply to every species in existence with a finite lifespan: the need to somehow reproduce. Even species that self-replicate still need the opportunity to do so; and species that require interaction with another (or more than one other) of the species in order to reproduce (e.g. all mammals) also need to do this as well.

Which means, when beaten down, the only true common underpinnings to all lifeforms are the twin needs for nourishment/sustenance and reproduction, in whatever forms those may take.

Lan-"only human on the outside"-efan

shidaku said:

I'm going to borrow your comment and spitball a little here, so this isn't really directed at you, but more at Sci-Fi/Sy-Fy that promotes this line of thought.

I've always found this line of thought odd because it seems to ignore the fundamental similarities between humans and aliens. It's a similarity we even ignore between humans and animals, so it's not entirely unexpected that when we see creatures that look totally different than us, we must assume that they ARE totally different from us. But the underlying reality is that aliens probably require the same fundamental elements that humans do. At a bare minimum, food and a life-sustaining environment. Now what qualifies as "food" and "life sustaining environment" may be a million different things, but the reactions to the need, to the possession, to the loss of those things is arguably (and I've never met an alien mind you) fundamentally the same.

When a human is hungry, the hungrier they get the less picky they become about what they will eat. Why would aliens be any different?

Aliens may experience lesser or greater degrees of "greed" when they have food, depending on biological and cultural needs and norms but they'll still have them. Any intelligent species is likely to currently or historically have worshipped gods and have created cultures and civilizations. They may have different philosophical approaches to the construction of these civilizations, but really, short of these creatures being Xenomorphs or Horta there are going to be very real underpinnings to their existance that will make them far closer to humans than not.

Now, if we want to talk about truly alien creatures in D&D, we can start with Illithids and Warforged. We could probably even extend the concept to dragons. But anything that fits into the medium size category and has a roughly human build is going to be roughly human in lifestyle out of simple biological necessity.

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Without disagreeing with any biological or sociobiological claim you've made (except for the bit about gods)... simply needing food and resources, and living in communities, do not make a thing "far closer to humans than not". No, they're not going to just randomly kill people or do totally bizarre and inexplicable things. Yes, with patience and observation we can probably understand the basic reasons for why they do some of the things they do, as we can with terrestrial nonhuman animals. But even with terrestrial animals, there are a lot of behaviors that experts don't fully understand and might never be able to understand. And sentient aliens are going to have minds vastly more complex than those of the terrestrial animals we know.

Also, they're vanishingly unlikely to have a roughly human build. Humans have a really weird build, biologically speaking.

All of which is going to say that when we look at a setting and see beings who do have a roughly human build, and do high-level human-specific things like make music and ponder religion and fall in love, it's a good sign that we're dealing with beings who are, for all intents and purposes except nomenclature, human.

I think there is a reason why the majority of player races are called "humanoid". And I guess it is the very same reason why we see weird stuff like DragonBoobs on 4e dragonborn. These races are meant to be relatable by human standards, they have similar feelings like humans and in many cases they take one or more human (sometimes cultural) aspects and exaggerate it. The only thing that makes true humans different from them is that humans can be all of that in any combination they like.

Personally, I find this approach a bit lame. I do love my races to differ more from a "general" human and a dwarven or elven relationship can differ vastly from a human one in my settings. But the same applies to cultures. Many D&D (human) cultures are such carbon copies of easier to comprehend human cultures (for a western audience) that I'm feeling bored.

Another random thought is that "gods (or some greater power) created us the way we are right now" for the majority of races isn't really that clever world building. Why not evolution? Why not explain why humanoid races can interbreed with the fact that they all have the same ancestors? Why not explain animosities between the species with centuries of competition for resources? Unless all of the gods sat together at a table and said "okay, let's play a game of Humanoids&Monsters, so please everyone design their people!", it wouldn't be that logical to have a similar physiology or allow interbreeding or have remotely relatable means of communication etc. at all.

Now, at least in 4e, we got some weirder races for those who were into it. We got dryads and shardminds and warforged. And I think these options are great! But I sometines ask myself why such a magnificent creature would need or occupy the same "class" or have the same "background" a humanoid does...

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Lylandra said:

Another random thought is that "gods (or some greater power) created us the way we are right now" for the majority of races isn't really that clever world building. Why not evolution? Why not explain why humanoid races can interbreed with the fact that they all have the same ancestors?

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Never mind just humanoid races interbreeding. Take a look through yer Monster Manual sometime and try to explain the genetics behind some of those creatures - as in just what had to at some point interbreed with what to generate that? Are Tabaxi the missing link between Humans and lions?

Once you've done this it'll become clear that genetics in a D&D universe are far more forgiving than in the real world, when it comes to interbreeding.

Then on top of all that you've got shapeshifters (messy questions: does shapeshifting into a creature give the ability to breed with that creature; and if yes, are the genetics of any offspring half-based on the shifter's original race?) and deities (who by some mythologies can, it seems, interbreed with anything).

Now, at least in 4e, we got some weirder races for those who were into it. We got dryads and shardminds and warforged.

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Nitpick: warforged are from 3.5e Eberron. Dryads have been around forever as a monster and somewhere in the back of my mind something's telling me they were made PC-playable in 2e...?

lowkey13 said:

In the end, the injection of too much realism and too much introspection can interfere with the fun of the game. There's a fine line between clever and stupid ...

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Clever and stupid overlap greatly, at least in the eyes of people playing high-Intelligence low-Wisdom characters...

Lanefan

lowkey13 said:

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EDIT- I think the reason for some confusion about my goal is that I didn't have one. Sometime I just like to think out loud..

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Where is [MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION], anyway?

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Lylandra said:

Another random thought is that "gods (or some greater power) created us the way we are right now" for the majority of races isn't really that clever world building. Why not evolution?

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Well, evolution is what actually happened, so in a way, it's the least creative creation story possible.

[MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION], this is one of the places where I really like how 13th Age (d20 similar to 5e) does class/race combos. Your race gives you choice of +2 from two different ability scores that define the race, and racial features that aren't overly tailored to just one type of build. Your class then gives +2 to one of two ability scores that define the class, but you can't pick the same as your race. So you will always, no matter what, be able to get a +2 to your primary for your class. Basically, each race works out to be a reasonable choice for each class, but even more towards your de facto notes, no race becomes overwhelmingly good for a particular class.

Satyrn said:

Where is [MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION], anyway?

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Taking a break from D&D, dealing with some RL stuff and addictions on PS4/XboxOne.