Missed session catch-up XP

iserith · Aug 7, 2018

I really wonder sometimes in these discussions if the "everyone is the same level regardless of participation" is a hangover from previous editions of the game. That could be for people who played those games or who simply learned D&D 5e from someone who brought that conceit with them into the new version.

In those games (at least 3e and 4e), there really was a difference in contribution because of how those games were designed. As a result, I was concerned enough about PCs being the same level in D&D 3e and 4e that I did away with XP for the most part because of it. (D&D 4e even had special rules you could use to modify lower-level PCs so they could be in a group of higher-level PCs. Otherwise they couldn't hit the ACs, Defenses, and DCs of higher level monsters and skill checks!) That's really not the case in D&D 5e due to its design and all of my practical experience in this edition has borne that out. Thus, I don't need to behave like it's D&D 3e or 4e. PCs can be different levels and still effectively contribute.

Now, "I just don't like it..." is a preference that can't be argued against - that's fine. But the argument that PCs of disparate levels can't be on the same team and still contribute meaningfully is simply incorrect. And you don't have to take my word for it - try it out and see.

Oofta · Aug 7, 2018

iserith said:
I really wonder sometimes in these discussions if the "everyone is the same level regardless of participation" is a hangover from previous editions of the game. That could be for people who played those games or who simply learned D&D 5e from someone who brought that conceit with them into the new version.

In those games (at least 3e and 4e), there really was a difference in contribution because of how those games were designed. As a result, I was concerned enough about PCs being the same level in D&D 3e and 4e that I did away with XP for the most part because of it. (D&D 4e even had special rules you could use to modify lower-level PCs so they could be in a group of higher-level PCs. Otherwise they couldn't hit the ACs, Defenses, and DCs of higher level monsters and skill checks!) That's really not the case in D&D 5e due to its design and all of my practical experience in this edition has borne that out. Thus, I don't need to behave like it's D&D 3e or 4e. PCs can be different levels and still effectively contribute.

Now, "I just don't like it..." is a preference that can't be argued against - that's fine. But the argument that PCs of disparate levels can't be on the same team and still contribute meaningfully is simply incorrect. And you don't have to take my word for it - try it out and see.

I have in AL. A handful of levels can make a pretty big difference in any number of ways including HP, saves, proficiencies, damage, spells, AC.

It's the difference of dying after the first encounter and stomping on the bad guys in a recent game. I'm speaking from personal experience - my wife and I brought in 4th level PCs after our level 1's died a second time for an Epic. That may have been a bit extreme because level 1's are quite squishy but I've seen the same thing any time you have more than 2-3 levels of difference.

A difference of more than a couple of levels can feel pretty huge to many people. You seriously don't think there's a big difference between a level 1 character and a level 4 or 5 character? Some people might enjoy playing low man on the totem pole. Heck, I might enjoy it now and then. That doesn't mean there's not a difference.

Whether those differences matter to you or not is a personal preference, just because you don't care doesn't give you the right to dismiss everyone else out of hand.

jgsugden · Aug 7, 2018

Go to milestone XP - they advance a level when they take a long rest after a major achievement in the game, about once per 12 hours of play. If someone misses a session ... or an entire summer ... keep them with the rest of the party. It is just more fun to have everone on par.

iserith · Aug 7, 2018

Oofta said:
I have in AL. A handful of levels can make a pretty big difference in any number of ways including HP, saves, proficiencies, damage, spells, AC.

It's the difference of dying after the first encounter and stomping on the bad guys in a recent game. I'm speaking from personal experience - my wife and I brought in 4th level PCs after our level 1's died a second time for an Epic. That may have been a bit extreme because level 1's are quite squishy but I've seen the same thing any time you have more than 2-3 levels of difference.

A difference of more than a couple of levels can feel pretty huge to many people. You seriously don't think there's a big difference between a level 1 character and a level 4 or 5 character? Some people might enjoy playing low man on the totem pole. Heck, I might enjoy it now and then. That doesn't mean there's not a difference.

Whether those differences matter to you or not is a personal preference, just because you don't care doesn't give you the right to dismiss everyone else out of hand.

I don't argue that there isn't a difference. I'm arguing against any assertion that such characters can't meaningfully contribute because of their difference in levels. The greatest disparity I saw in levels was 1st level with an average 6th-to-8th-level party. The low-level PC just played carefully for one whole encounter until he *poof* was 2nd level. If memory serves, he was 4th level by the end of the night. So however much someone might object to having to play carefully, they certainly don't have to do it for very long. One encounter maybe, before more hit points and class features make them more survivable.

Because of our player pool system, our campaigns are rife with level disparity. It has almost no impact at all on contributions by the players of lower-level characters.

The Human Target · Aug 7, 2018

iserith said:
Why is anyone's fun predicated on having a character the same level as the others? There's very little difference in capability between same-tier characters of disparate levels in D&D 5e. And even characters of different tiers are able to contribute, plus level up fast.

I'm not saying use XP. But the argument for not using XP because "it's not fun to be a level behind" seems odd to me.

Why is your fun predicated on people having characters of different levels?

iserith · Aug 7, 2018

The Human Target said:
Why is your fun predicated on people having characters of different levels?

I've made no such claim.

Oofta · Aug 7, 2018

iserith said:
I don't argue that there isn't a difference. I'm arguing against any assertion that such characters can't meaningfully contribute because of their difference in levels. The greatest disparity I saw in levels was 1st level with an average 6th-to-8th-level party. The low-level PC just played carefully for one whole encounter until he *poof* was 2nd level. If memory serves, he was 4th level by the end of the night. So however much someone might object to having to play carefully, they certainly don't have to do it for very long. One encounter maybe, before more hit points and class features make them more survivable.

Because of our player pool system, our campaigns are rife with level disparity. It has almost no impact at all on contributions by the players of lower-level characters.

I'm glad it works for you. I'm happy for you and your players that you don't care.

That doesn't mean PCs of different levels can contribute as much from a purely mechanical perspective. What I object to is dismissing other people's opinions as irrelevant because they don't agree with you.

My preference is to keep people at the same level so that people feel like they're contributing on an even footing. I've been in games where that wasn't the case and it wasn't as much fun, especially because at the time I had very few opportunities to play. Maybe that makes me a whiner.

Or maybe I just have a different opinion than you do.

Oofta · Aug 7, 2018

iserith said:
I've made no such claim.

You just dismiss the opinion of anyone who prefers characters of the same level because being different levels doesn't matter to you.

iserith · Aug 7, 2018

Oofta said:
I'm glad it works for you. I'm happy for you and your players that you don't care.

That doesn't mean PCs of different levels can contribute as much from a purely mechanical perspective. What I object to is dismissing other people's opinions as irrelevant because they don't agree with you.

My preference is to keep people at the same level so that people feel like they're contributing on an even footing. I've been in games where that wasn't the case and it wasn't as much fun, especially because at the time I had very few opportunities to play. Maybe that makes me a whiner.

Or maybe I just have a different opinion than you do.

Oofta said:
You just dismiss the opinion of anyone who prefers characters of the same level because being different levels doesn't matter to you.

Your preferences are your preferences. I don't gainsay those. I do question preferences that are stated to be based on things that aren't borne out by practical experience. Questioning the stated premise for a preference is not dismissing someone's opinion.

"I don't like X..." Okay, fine.

"I don't like X because Y..." when Y is debatable opens the floor to discussion of Y. That discussion doesn't mean your preference as to X is dismissed.

Oofta · Aug 7, 2018

iserith said:
Your preferences are your preferences. I don't gainsay those. I do question preferences that are stated to be based on things that aren't borne out by practical experience.

So basically my experience with different levels at the table do not count.

iserith said:
Questioning the stated premise for a preference is not dismissing someone's opinion.

"I don't like X..." Okay, fine.

"I don't like X because Y..." when Y is debatable opens the floor to discussion of Y. That discussion doesn't mean your preference as to X is dismissed.

You've basically said "shut up whiner, your experience doesn't matter".

Do you not see that?

EDIT (because this is bugging me):
How much more "practical" do you need than showing up to a game and having both my character but my wife's character not able to hit and dying after the first big encounter then bringing in a copy of that character to have them die again?

To then bring in a 4th (3rd? I don't remember) level character and have that PC stomp all over the remaining encounters and saving the party from what was looking like an inevitable TPK?

Missed session catch-up XP

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Oofta

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iserith

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